The No. 1 reason builders lose money – and how to stop it

Charley Burtwistle (00:05):

What is up everybody? Welcome back to another episode of “The Building Code.” I’m Charley Burtwistle. Here with me today, the one the only, Carly Ward. Carly, thank you for joining us.

Carly Ward (00:15):

Long time listener. First time caller, so I’m excited. Yeah, I’ve been with Buildertrend for coming up on five years, just submitted for my sabbatical, but I’ve worked in a lot of different customer service roles, mostly in account management, and within the last year was promoted to our partnership manager role. So, I manage all of our external partnerships with our business coaches and bookkeeping and accounting partnerships. So, it’s been a fun ride and kind of fun to almost dip back into account management, but more so on the partner side.

Charley Burtwistle (00:49):

Love that. And Carly’s doing a fantastic job of building out a really impressive partnership network. I think for a long time, Buildertrend tried to be everything for everyone, and we quickly realized that there are some very smart, intelligent people out there that can help us fill in our gaps from where Buildertrend stops and where other systems such as QuickBooks starts. So, the guest we have today, Carla Merrill, who is the owner of Builder’s GoTo, is one of our preferred partners. Carly, someone you work with a ton and why we wanted to bring you on today for this interview. Tell us a little bit about Carla and Builder’s GoTo.

Carly Ward (01:25):

Carla is an absolute gem. Works in the financial service management space helping our builders adopt Buildertrend and QuickBooks, integrate those together. She also helps with a lot of accounting and bookkeeping consulting projects. So, helping set up your chart of accounts, doing account cleanup, helping with job costing practices and establishing best practices within your financial space.

Charley Burtwistle (01:55):

Sounds super beneficial. I’m glad I have Carly here. I’m definitely in over my head. So, let’s get Carla in here. We’re going to have to really enunciate. We got a Charley, a Carly and a Carla. Sounds like the start of three people walking to a bar.

Carly Ward (02:09):

There’s a quiz at the end.

Charley Burtwistle (02:10):

There’s a quiz at the end. So, without further ado, let’s get Carla in here. Hey Carla, welcome back to “The Building Code,” second time on here. Super excited to have you today. How are you doing?

Carla Merrill (02:22):

I’m doing great. I’m excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

Charley Burtwistle (02:25):

Absolutely. As a second time, I’m guest here. You’re kind of joining some elite company. We always joke around that we want to put a plaque up in the studio here of all of our repeat guests here. So, really appreciate you making the time to come back on. But for those of our listeners that did not catch your first episode, always like to start with just who you are, where you came from and how you got to where you’re at today.

Carla Merrill (02:47):

Yeah, absolutely. So, I’m Carla Merrill. I am the owner and actual sole employee of Builder’s GoTo. I am an advanced QuickBooks Pro advisor, and I specialize in job cost accounting. So, I work with builders who are primarily those I kind of like to refer to as accounting DIYers. They’re typically small to mid-sized companies where a spouse or a parent or an in-house bookkeeper handles the books, although I’ve done some remote contract work for larger builders with full-scale accounting teams as well. My business is focused on helping builders set up or clean up their QuickBooks to ensure accurate job costing. I walk them through the correct way to enter transactions and then help them understand and how to read their financial reports, so that they can spot any errors and know exactly where their projects stand at any given time. I also support with a wide range of QuickBooks related questions with particular emphasis on QuickBooks online as there’s a lot of users who have made the switch to that platform.

(03:49):

And then on top of that, I also assist with project management software integration. I work with teams to build out best practice workflows utilizing QuickBooks and their project management software such as Buildertrend, so they can improve job cost reporting and keep their projects and their company profitable. As far as how I got started helping builders with job costing, I kind of actually stumbled into it. About 10 years ago, I re-entered the workforce after taking some time off to raise my four kids. Before that, I had worked as a fund accountant for an investment firm and then I later was an accounting manager for a commercial multifamily real estate investor. And around that time, a friend who happened to be a residential production builder mentioned that he needed help with some accounting and administrative tasks. So, I started working for him and that’s when I got introduced to CoConstruct, which was also a project management software. And he was a very successful builder.

(04:46):

I learned a ton from him about construction and also particularly fixed price spec building while working for him. And then a few years later I was recruited full-time by a custom builder remodeler who needed help getting his business processes in order. And since I’d already been familiar with CoConstruct, I set him up on that platform and integrated it with QuickBooks. And I learned a lot, a ton in that role. And if I’m being honest, a lot of what not to do. But looking back, those challenges gave me incredible valuable experience and insight. Working through the messy parts taught me a lot about client and trade relationships, how to streamline systems, how to spotlight some of those inefficiencies and most importantly probably why so many builders lose money. And then by chance and definitely the case of being at the right place at the right time, I was actually approached by CoConstruct and asked if I would be interested in starting my own business and offering training classes, which they called CoCamps to their users in the Western U.S.

(05:51):

I live in Idaho, and since CoConstruct was based in Virginia, they needed an experienced user to train for training opportunities for their users in the west because traveling to the east wasn’t always practical or cost-effective. So, in 2019, I launched Builder’s GoTo, and I initially hosted live two day CoCamps in major Western cities. And then when COVID hit, I started offering that class online via Zoom and switch that up to a schedule format that was shorter daily sessions running for a week. And that format had, and that online offering that opportunity online instead in person really took off. I started teaching builders from all over the U.S., Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

(06:36):

And as I was teaching those classes, I started to notice that I’d get a lot of questions every time I cover the topic of QuickBooks integration. And then I started to realize how many builders weren’t integrated because they didn’t really understand how to job cost, and they didn’t really understand it was supposed to work with QuickBooks. And I also started to notice that there was a lot of frustration and confusion and embarrassment associated with the fact that they didn’t understand it. And I really related to that because it took me back to sitting in that office when I was working for that custom builder and looking at these massive Excel spreadsheets full of these scheduler values and trying to line that up with what the bank draw sheets look like and then also how that transferred into QuickBooks and then also synced over to the budget page in CoConstruct. And at that time, even though I had a lot of experience in accounting, job costing was totally different, especially when it came to setting up QuickBooks and how this transaction got entered. And I felt really confused and frustrated and also embarrassed that I was having a really hard time figuring it out.

(07:44):

And ironically, when I was working there, I did end up hiring a QuickBooks advisor to come into the office and to help me. Hoping that she could kind of clear some things up, but the truth was she couldn’t. I mean, she understood the basics of accounting and she knew QuickBooks really well, but she had no experience with job costing, and she had never heard of CoConstruct. So, she, unfortunately, really couldn’t help me at all and that lit a fire under me to figure it out and really kind of have a better understanding of it.

(08:14):

So, eventually as I was teaching these classes because of all of these questions, I started teaching these little mini CoCamps, but I found that the one-on-one training was what builders really needed, and it kind of allowed me to provide more personalized targeted help. So, that’s where my business is now focused, where I still offer those services online via Zoom, and that allows clients to spread the training out over time, which eliminates that overwhelm when you’re going over a lot of financial information, just little bits of stuff is helpful. It gets kind, stressful and overwhelming. So, we spread it out and record those sessions, so you can re-watch them and try to get that understanding.

(08:58):

What I really love most about what I do is the opportunity has given me to kind of be that resource for people that I had one at one point been looking for, and I had been in their shoes, and I had felt that same confusion and that frustration and really that embarrassment. So, I really get where they’re coming from, and it’s really helped me to connect to and relate to my clients, which has been super rewarding.

Carly Ward (09:21):

Well, we’re really lucky to have you. Carla came under our wing with Buildertrend back at the beginning of the year and she’s worked with tons of CoConstruct clients as well as builder trend clients as well. But I’m curious, Carla, over all of your time and experience, what patterns have you noticed when it comes to financial health in construction businesses?

Carla Merrill (09:45):

Yeah, I mean, so from what I’ve seen and even in the work experience that I have is that construction businesses are often really super strong when it comes to managing on-site operations. They’ve got systems in place, and they have really great oversight to keep projects running smoothly when it’s on site. But the same structure and attention to detail often doesn’t carry over to the financial side of the business. And then, as a result, many builders lack that clear up-to-date understanding of where they stand financially, whether that’s at a project level or company wide. And, unfortunately, that clarity often doesn’t come until the project is almost nearly completed or sometimes not even until tax season when they’re maybe taking a closer look at their overall P&L. So, really without real-time job costing and budget tracking, it’s incredibly challenging to make informed, really proactive decisions that keep your business profitable and financially healthy.

Charley Burtwistle (10:44):

I can totally relate to everything that you’re saying specifically around a lot of times if people don’t understand something, they feel embarrassed to ask it, right? I myself in them in those shoes currently, which is why we brought Carly here today to help me out ask some of these questions. But I’m curious, I do have a lot of background in reporting and visibility into where different money is moving. So, I’m curious, are there common or do you see recurring reasons over and over again of why builders are losing money or is it more an overarching theme of they just don’t have the visibility into where their finances are going that is more of just overlooked?

Carla Merrill (11:26):

Well, statistically, the top reason that builders lose money is due to inaccurate estimating. They often rely on guesses instead of solid bids. And I can attest from experience that this happens honestly far too often. But it’s kind of understandable because oftentimes it can be really hard to get those solid bids back from your trades. But if you’re truly being serious about trying to ensure that you’re not losing a lot of money, your budget really should be grounded in real numbers from your trades, not assumptions. So, everything really starts there.

(11:59):

But in my opinion, one of the most overlooked areas where you can really start losing money and bleeding out is forgetting to account for overhead costs. So, like your rent or your fuel or your admin salaries, those kind of other office-related expenses that aren’t necessarily project-specific. And that usually happens because builders just don’t really simply know how to calculate an accurate overhead percentage. But even with that, if they’ve got that figured out, if your project and your overhead costs aren’t running to the correct GL accounts on your profit and loss calculation isn’t going to be correct. But the problem is if overhead isn’t built into your pricing, your projects might look profitable on paper, but you could actually be losing a lot of money over time. And no matter how well you manage your each job, if overhead isn’t accurately accounted for, it’ll slowly erode your bottom line because at the end of the day, those costs are going to come out of your income one way or the other.

Carly Ward (13:00):

And I’m curious, Carla, how often when you meet with clients for the first time, do they come out of the gates feeling confident in their numbers and what their financial reporting is and is it uncovered later on that they actually aren’t very aware specifically of what their profitability is looking like?

Carla Merrill (13:21):

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think you kind of always go in as with this good intent of how you’re going to do stuff, but like I said, things get really busy as the project is progressing and are not always necessarily taking the time that’s necessary to really track what your costs are. And so, that can start to run into trouble.

Charley Burtwistle (13:44):

And then as things get going, I know you mentioned everything starts with an estimate, right? You have to have an accurate estimate put in place, you have to make sure that you’re including your overhead costs in there as well, too. But once the project gets going, is it pretty typical that you see delays or scope creep not hit their cost accurately and people continue to spiral and lose money?

Carla Merrill (14:08):

For sure. So, those delays in scope creep absolutely contribute to your losses, and they can cost money. And oftentimes, that money can be either underestimated or unaccounted for labor costs or those strain on your resources, which can be a huge loss. And if left unchecked, they’ll spiral really fast. And the best way to prevent that is, I would say, to have a consistent process in place ahead of time that tracks and accounts for changes as they happen. And those are typically done through a change order. And you need to be sure when you’re doing those change orders that you’re also accounting for that additional labor or amateurial costs that strain on your resources.

(14:51):

I find that when that step is delayed or worse completely overlooked, then things really start to unravel, and you just have to be really proactive and stay with it instead of playing catch up. It’s the catch-up part of it that really starts to throw people off. And that happens all the time. I would say more often than not when it comes to financials and construction, oftentimes it is a catch-up because you just get so busy on the day to day of running your construction business that the financials sometimes get sort of put on the back burner.

Carly Ward (15:23):

And when you talk about change orders, that’s one of the most common things that I think of when I hear builders leaving money on the table. Based off of your experience working in the construction industry and with other builders, do you have any quick wins that you’ve implemented or that you suggest to clients in relation to being really efficient with capturing those change orders and getting approvals?

Carla Merrill (15:48):

I would say that the most important part of that is that you have a process in place that you’re doing it, that you’re doing it repeatedly, and that is something that is just part of your overall business, that you have processes in place ahead of time that you’re not thinking, OK, I’m going to do this on the next one. Because it’s really the consistency of putting those change orders in place and ensuring that you’re capturing them that is going to make the biggest difference. And I will say that change orders are something that I’ve often found that open book builders don’t always necessarily feel like they need. And because of the way the open book is invoiced, sometimes they’re just like, “Well, I’m invoicing for these costs and then I’m adding my markup to that.” But I can tell you from experience that open book builders actually lose far more money not doing a change order than a fixed price builder will.

Charley Burtwistle (16:38):

So, explain that to me like I’m an idiot, which I am. Why is the reasoning there that the open book actually loses more money?

Carla Merrill (16:47):

Well, I probably should restate that a little bit. I have worked with open book builders before, even in-house, and I’ve worked with them through the work that I’ve done. And it’s really the open book builders who kind of toward the end where they’ve had this budget or estimate where sometimes the client doesn’t always necessarily understand or know what is included in that and if this overage is included or not included. And if a change order doesn’t happen, one, that sort of erodes client relationships with people because yeah, at the end of the day they may end up paying for it, but if you’re going through a bank loan or something like that, the funds oftentimes may not be there.

(17:29):

And I’ve seen multiple builders who don’t realize that everything has gone so far over from the money that they thought was there and the bank loan that at the end of the day they have all of these extra costs that there’s no change orders, there’s no documentation for whatsoever, no sign off on the client. And so, there’s kind of this sort of awkward moment where “Hey, I’m way over. Am I going to collect that from my client? Am I going to try to talk my trade down?” kind of thing. And so, that is where people get into a lot of trouble is that I think they just think, well, if I’m just always going to invoice them for whatever costs come through, getting that sign change order is a contract of just understanding yourself and your client that what things are going to cost in an anticipation of how much they’re going to cost. And if the money’s running out, then you can put things in place to be able to ensure that it’s there to cover that.

Charley Burtwistle (18:25):

I totally get why you continue to stress and iterate that these processes and procedures are really hypercritical in this function because the visibility can almost be counterproductive if you’re treating every single one like a one-off of like, OK, well, where am I at in this job? Can I afford to do this? This changer came in, what should my market be on this? It would be overwhelming to go one by one and try to figure that out if you have this improved visibility into am I profitable or not? But if you have a consistent process that’s just, OK, this comes in, I do this, this comes in, I do that and know that at the back end of all of this, it’s going to net out to be more money in your pocket. That just has to be a huge weight off the back of these business owners to be able to just trust that they’re doing the right things and not have to worry about that.

Carly Ward (19:14):

And from the client perspective, it provides a great deal of transparency. And there’s not that, well, what if this happens? Because there’s a standard process in place, they know what’s coming, and there’s not any of these surprise moments like we hear with a lot of builders that might not have those processes in place and aren’t quite as organized.

Carla Merrill (19:35):

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I’ve found that with client relationships, even with your trades and stuff, just having those consistent processes in place can go a long way for everybody, for the builder, for the client, for the trade to just have good relationships with people.

Carly Ward (19:52):

Outside of having a really consistent change order and invoicing process. Are there any other tools or strategies that you suggest for your builders to implement for financial success?

Carla Merrill (20:03):

So, as a QuickBooks Pro advisor, I naturally recommend that you use QuickBooks as the foundational accounting system, but when it comes to project-specific accounting, QuickBooks isn’t enough. So, you would want a third-party project management tool, like Buildertrend, which allows you to track real-time budgets and job cost reports that are visible to both your team and your clients, which is also really important because that’s really talks to that successful financial communication with everyone. And then adopting features, not only change orders that we just talked about, but also bids as I talked about before, that you’re getting bids when you’re creating your estimate, and then those purchase orders, purchase orders are also really important and they’re critical for establishing consistent … You just need to establish consistent repeatable processes, which will ultimately help your business be more profitable as you’re moving along. And that’s I think the hardest part is just having those consistent processes that all of your team members are aware of, and they’re consistently following them.

Charley Burtwistle (21:10):

And I think something that’s been really eye-opening to me since we started working with you and even just during this interview alone, is how important it is to have that connectivity between your financial tool such as accounting and your project management tool. I think a lot of things, and that’s something Carla I’m sure you can attest to, we stress to our clients here at Buildertrend as well, too, is you can’t just have finances, QuickBooks, Project Management, Buildertrend. You really have to tie together those two and tie your processes and how you’re managing your projects with the accounting software that you’re using. They’re both great tools independent of each other, but when you start connecting them and using them collaboratively, that’s where you really start to see some wins and feel this more sense of calm and ownership over actually understanding how everything’s flowing through the entire lifespan of a project.

Carly Ward (22:00):

But admittedly, and Carla can speak to this, there’s so much fear up until you actually get that connectivity. And especially if you don’t have a lot of guidance or direction from reliable resources, it can make it even much more difficult. And so, it’s more comfortable to sit in that fear and do this double entry and basically waste a little bit of time where you could be spending it in much more beneficial spaces. So, I’m interested, Carla, to hear some of the emotional sides of things that come with connecting Buildertrend and QuickBooks or even just on uncertainty within their financials.

Carla Merrill (22:39):

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, actually that first builder that I worked for that was a spec builder, he would not integrate with QuickBooks, and he was using both separately using a lot of spreadsheets, kind of what you were just talking about, double entry and everywhere because, well, one of the biggest fears that I think a lot of people have is they fear that if they’re integrating something with their QuickBooks that someone else can see it, like that third party is checking in on their profit and loss or something like that, and that’s something that they’re concerned about.

(23:09):

But the truth is, if you aren’t implementing all of those tools that are available to you, there are some things that one thing can do and the other one cannot. And having the two of those connected just gives you that overall view that you need to be able to ensure that your projects are profitable and to ensure that things are running smoothly company-wide as well, and it saves a ton of time.

(23:32):

I know from my experience, double entry causes errors. I mean, it just does. I mean, you’re not always going to have everything exactly right. And so, just having that single entry workflow, and that’s something that I work with a lot of people on is what’s the best workflow for your company of how you’re entering your transactions, where they’re going to populate and what’s going to be easiest and best for your company for entering those and being able to get that reporting that you need to determine how things are going? And that process too of how often should you be checking? Who should be checking? What should you be looking at? At what point? Type of thing, and then when to tell if you need a change order so that it’s not coming at the end of the project. And that’s something that those project management software at Buildertrend can help you with where it’s giving you real-time information as you’re running along, as long as you’re using those tools to help you to be able to make quicker, better financial decisions to ensure that they’re profitable at the end.

Charley Burtwistle (24:29):

So, if I’m a listener and I’m sitting here listening to this when I drive in and say, “This sounds a lot like something I’m experienced today. I feel like I’m constantly putting out fires. I want to have a better understanding of my financials and make sure that I’m doing the things today that are going to set me up for success tomorrow.” Where do you typically recommend people start? What’s step one of being like, “OK, I want to take control here. Now what?”

Carla Merrill (24:52):

Yeah, so I would say that step one would be that you just need to take the time to implement these things. And it does take time. You save time by taking time is really what I tell a lot of people. And that would be the first thing that I would say. I mean, there’s not always really super quick fixes. I mean, it is going to take some time to make sure that you’re putting all of these processes in place and that these are consistent and that everybody understands them, and they’re running them because if your projects are consistently losing money, as I said, my best advice would be to slow down and focus on more about building in the right financial tools and processes maybe honestly before you even are starting your next project because it’s going to save you a lot of money. So, taking the time to get things right now will save you significant time and money in the long run. And the longer you delay doing that, the more you stand to lose.

(25:50):

We’ve talked a little bit about the embarrassment behind that. Don’t be embarrassed. If you need help, get help. And that’s going to be the best decision that you’re ever going to make. And I’ve heard a lot of people … The embarrassment behind it is, and I always try to tell people, builders are builders and not CPAs, and you would never expect a CPA to know how to frame a house or pour a foundation. And so, builders really shouldn’t expect themselves to understand all of this accounting stuff and how to put those processes in place and just seek help from somebody who can assist you in being able to get those things set up, so that you know what to expect and that your team knows what to expect and that you can feel confident in your numbers.

Carly Ward (26:40):

And for the builders that are listening today, what is one really key piece of advice that you would give to them that they could walk away with and implement today that would set for the good path for their profitability and financials within their business?

Carla Merrill (26:55):

Well, it’s probably a lot of what I just said. I would definitely really get the help that you need. I mean, assess that and determine where some of those gaps are of where you’re having issues, where those fires are. Like, “OK, where is this fire and what is potentially starting this and what do I need to implement in order to do this, to put this out?” And I would definitely take a look at what tools you’re using. Are you utilizing a third-party project management software? If not, I 100% recommend that you do. You’re not going to get accurate job costing if you’re not. And QuickBooks is a great tool, but it doesn’t really do real-time job costing for you. So, that would be the first thing that I would do. If you’re not utilizing that, I would definitely start looking into implementing that first.

Charley Burtwistle (27:48):

Well, yeah, I was just going to say, hopefully all of our listeners out there are Buildertrend users, and if they are, I’d highly recommend reaching out to your customer success rep. They’ll be able to get you pointed in the right direction on how to better utilize Buildertrend as a whole. And luckily we have Carla in our preferred partner network, so when it comes time to taking a deeper dive into the financials and making sure that your QuickBooks and everything is set up, we can refer you over to her as well, too. So, it’s as easy as just reaching out, and we will take the ball from there and get everyone set up with what they need to be successful.

Carla Merrill (28:21):

Yeah, and utilize it. That’s the one thing I would say, I mean, utilize those financial features. I mean, I meet a lot of people who just aren’t maybe using just one or a couple. They’re not really fully utilizing it to as fullest extent. So, I would say definitely do that.

Charley Burtwistle (28:21):

Absolutely.

Carly Ward (28:38):

And I’d encourage our listeners as well to explore our partners like Carla, because there’s a lot that our software can do, but a lot of it goes beyond our software and there’s additional services that we partner with that can provide real valuable help.

Charley Burtwistle (28:54):

That’s a fantastic segue, Carly. Carla, we’re getting close to time here, but I always like to end each interview with just four listeners that are super interested in what you’re talking about today. Where can they go to learn more about Builder’s GoTo and connect with you?

Carla Merrill (29:09):

Yeah, you can find information and contact me through my website, which is buildersgoto.com. I’m also on Instagram and LinkedIn and coming soon, I’ll also be doing some short videos on YouTube. So, you can email me on my website. Buildersgoto.com is the best place to reach out to me.

Charley Burtwistle (29:27):

Love that. We’ll make sure to link all of those in the show notes as well, too. So if people want to go click into that, feel free to reach out there. Otherwise, Carla, thank you so much for your time today. Always a pleasure talking to you and really appreciate you coming on.

Carla Merrill (29:41):

Well, thanks so much for having me. This was fun. Thank you.

Charley Burtwistle (29:44):

Well, we just heard from Carla Merrill, owner of Builder’s GoTo, a fantastic guest. Second time on here. I learned a ton. Carly, your first podcast host experience. What’d you think?

Carly Ward (29:55):

Oh, we’ll be back for sure.

Charley Burtwistle (29:58):

We’ll be back.

Carly Ward (29:58):

Well, I’ll be back for sure. It was great having Carla on though she is such a valuable expert within the Buildertrend network and really grateful that she’s been able to make such a impact on so many of our builders. And she’s got a ton of more lead way to go with helping our builders and really establish best practices and workflows within the financial space so they can be financially healthy and sustainable within their business.

Charley Burtwistle (30:24):

For sure. I love when we talk to partners like this that are like, “Let us do. Guess what? The thing that you don’t like doing. I love doing, so let me help you.” And I think the way I kind of frame it in my head is our builders are already doing the hard part. They’re building incredible homes for incredible people. They have a certain skill set that they’re very, very good at. Focus on that. Do what you’re passionate about. Lean on other people that are passionate about other things to fill in the gaps in that. And it’s not a bad thing. It’s a really, really good thing actually. And Buildertrend is actually taking a similar approach, which is like, let us lean on Carla. She’s super good at this, she’s super passionate about this. Let us get her as many different people as we can to help optimize their business, and we can all get better together.

Carly Ward (31:12):

Absolutely. And I think one of the unique things about Carla, aside from just her industry expert knowledge, she also has the background to back it up working with builders and knowing the day-to-day pains and struggles that a lot of our builders go through. And what makes her really unique is she has this incredible bedside manner and is almost like a financial therapist in a lot of ways aside from just helping you with your bookkeeping and accounting and kind of getting you off on the right financial track.

Charley Burtwistle (31:43):

I love that. Well, like I said in the interview, if you are interested in learning more, feel free to reach out to your Buildertrend account rep, and they can definitely put you in contact or feel free to connect with Carla directly at buildersgoto.com, which we will have linked in the show notes. Otherwise, I think that about does it for us. As always, well, make sure to like, review, subscribe. We’ll see you next time. I’m Charley Burtwistle.

Carly Ward (32:04):

Carly Ward.

Charley Burtwistle (32:04):

Peace.