Difficult clients? Turn headaches into harmony with clear expectations

Charley Burtwistle (00:05):

What is up everybody? Welcome back to another episode of “The Building Code.” I’m Charley Birtwistle, the solo podcast host for at least the time being. This will be the first episode I’ve recorded without Courtney, so don’t hold me too accountable. Cut me a little slack, I’ll figure it out, I’m sure. But the good news is, even though I’m recording solo, I have an awesome guest joining me today, Allyson Case Anderson, who is the founder and CEO of Integro Builders out in Chicago, Illinois, talking a little bit about client management, client expectation, communication, dealing with difficult clients, all the fun things that builders have to go through on every single project. She has done a fantastic job learning lessons the hard way, celebrating successes and figuring out a really, really robust, consistent process that she can run her clients through to ensure that they’re going to be happier, she’s going to be happier, architects are going to be happier, one big happy family getting projects across the finish line. So, without further ado, let’s get Allyson in here. Hey Allyson, welcome to “The Building Code.” Really appreciate you making the time to join me today. How’s it going?

Allyson Case Anderson (01:16):

It’s going good. I’m so excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

Charley Burtwistle (01:19):

Oh, I’m excited to have you. I was actually just before you hopped on, going through your website, we have pre-planted questions I’m supposed to ask, but your website is incredible. I have a lot of additional questions to ask as well too. So excited to talk to you. For those people that have not been stalking your website though, we always like to start with just a quick introduction, who you are, where you came from, how you got to where you’re at today.

Allyson Case Anderson (01:41):

Yeah, my name is Allyson Anderson. I am a custom builder. I have a focus on residential custom-builds and commercial interiors. I have an office in Chicago and in western Michigan, and I’m a certified passive house builder.

Charley Burtwistle (01:57):

Gotcha. And how did you, I always like to hear these stories, how did you get started in construction?

Allyson Case Anderson (02:03):

I started in construction because I hired a terrible contractor.

Charley Burtwistle (02:07):

Okay. You’re like, “I can do better than this.”

Allyson Case Anderson (02:10):

Yeah. So, I left my cushy corporate job and I wanted to flip houses like everyone on HGTV.

Charley Burtwistle (02:17):

Of course.

Allyson Case Anderson (02:19):

I was 28 years old and so, I got a business partner and he had a guy, a buddy, and that buddy was going to be our contractor and it was an unmitigated disaster. Schedule, lack of communication, the budget was double or more, completely out of control. And so, I had gotten my GC license because I was like, “Oh, man.” I was like, “I don’t need to pay this guy to mess up my project for me. I can mess it up all by myself and have more control than I have right now.” So, I got my GC license, and I thought on our next development that we would do the subcontracting ourselves, but instead I ended up in litigation with my business partner over his buddy. And so, then I was broke, and I had this GC license, and I had a friend who was like, “Yeah, I don’t trust any of these contractors that are bidding my renovation and we’re already over budget. We haven’t even gotten to real bidding.” And so, she’s like, “Would you want to do it?”

(03:27):

And I said, “Yeah, I mean as long as you understand I don’t quite know what I’m doing, we can do that.” And she did. And so, that was my first project. And then I had another friend and he was like, “I’m renovating this two flat.” He had an architect, and that was a totally different experience, and I was like, “Oh yeah, this is way better.” We have a set of drawings, we have a bible, the client, I have this third party that can bounce ideas off of but also help buffer with the client. It’s like, yeah, the client doesn’t have to believe my change order is legit, they have to believe their architect. And then I learned from the architecture community that the relationship between the builder and the architect is often an adversarial one. And that’s where I really thought I could make a big difference. So, I started doing sole architecturally led work, and we really branded ourselves as being about the project. Projects are hard, construction projects are hard. I don’t care what anybody says. And so, I think the best thing we can do, particularly for the clients is all stay on the same team and present solutions, not problems, as often as we can.

Charley Burtwistle (04:39):

Yeah, absolutely. And that was one of the things I saw on your website that caught my eye immediately, is a quote from you, “We’re about facilitation, we’re about collaboration, we’re about hard truths if necessary, we’re about the project,” which I thought was really cool. And you referenced that multiple times in there about the collaboration, the communication as a team oriented approach to going about the project.

Allyson Case Anderson (05:01):

Yeah, I think initially when I started in this, I thought the builders were the problem. I thought everyone was a degenerate. They were just keeping everything tight to the vest and overcharging and not giving enough information and that it was all with ill intent I guess we’ll say. But I think as I’ve been doing this, I’m going into my 13th year now, I would say about five, six years in, I realized that it’s not the builders. Builders want to be good. The reason that builders say little and show less is because they are burned when they show any level of vulnerability on a project, either by the client or by the architects. And then I really started changing perspective of the trouble with our industry is not that we have all these bad actors all over the place, the trouble we have in this industry is wrong expectations from everyone involved. And so, I’ve really had a strong focus on trying to educate clients and architects on how to work with your builders and how to operate with grace, so that we can all get through to the finish line.

Charley Burtwistle (06:13):

Yeah. I mean, it’s an incredibly stressful environment to be operating in constantly. You are talking about significant amounts of money, significantly long time durations and processes, a ton of different players in the court all at once and having to keep everyone on the same page and be excited about it. I think something I’ve learned is you shouldn’t pitch that they’re going to be excited about it the whole time. Be very, very open and transparent about, I’ve heard people even say, they present a little roadmap as like, “Here’s where you’re going to get really mad at me, and then here’s what the next week’s going to look like when you’re going to look really happy with me. And then this is where we’ll get to the finish line here.” But I think that’s what we brought you on to talk about today, is how to navigate those circumstances and set the proper expectations to make it a better experience for everyone involved, not just the builder, not just the client, but the entire team.

Allyson Case Anderson (07:05):

Yeah, I agree. And I think also there is a misconception that clients feel like once they’ve hired their team, that team is responsible for the dynamic of their project and nothing could be further from the truth. Actually, the clients are the ones who establish the dynamic. If they’re hostile, the project is hostile. There’s nothing that’s going to save a project from a hostile client. If they don’t know what’s going on, nobody knows what’s going on. If they’re not dialed in, then we can’t be dialed in. And I think that’s a big shift in people’s thinking on how these projects have to be successful. Everyone has to be on the same page all the time. That’s what makes it so hard. It’s like the most stressful marriage ever, where it’s like you constantly have to be talking about all the hard things all the time, it’s like you can’t walk away from it because things are moving so quickly also. People don’t even have time to think on something. Once construction starts, you’re high octane, full force ahead, otherwise you’re behind. If you’re not four steps ahead in construction, you’re two steps behind. That’s just how it is.

Charley Burtwistle (08:19):

That’s a fantastic way to think about things. So, I’m curious, you mentioned you’ve been in business, what, 18 years now? Is that what you said?

Allyson Case Anderson (08:26):

13.

Charley Burtwistle (08:27):

13 years now. What were some of the … How did you grow to come into this mentality? Were there a couple of difficult projects early on once you got through the business partner and the litigation phase where you learned lessons the hard way? Or was it something you had intent from the beginning since you had gone through a poor contractor as yourself as a client? What were some of the key turning points that got you to where you’re at today from a way of thinking?

Allyson Case Anderson (08:57):

I think it’s a combination of failures and successes, and I think when we have a really successful project, it just exacerbates the failures on others, where you’re like, “Wow, we did that so much better on this one.” I think the projects are difficult, the clients are difficult. There’s a lot of personalities there. There’s a lot of different project management styles when it comes from clients. And I think the team is really, really important. I took for granted early on that I could work with any architect. I can’t work with any architect. I have to work with the right architect because the reason that builders and architects end up as adversaries is when they have two completely different working styles.

(09:54):

I have a high level of due diligence, a high level of detail. I need architects checking our stuff. I require contractually that they’re checking our stuff. And if we have an architect that’s unsure or feels exposed because of the level of detail that we require of them, it’s very difficult on that project, and it creates a dynamic where the clients end up refereeing between us and that’s a situation we never want. I never want a client as a referee on a project. There’s nothing worse. And I also think sometimes clients are just better off not renovating. There are times where I was like, “I think you’re better off buying something that’s already built. I don’t think you’re …” And there are so many dynamics that are happening on the projects as well.

(10:49):

The very first lien we ever had to file was because the clients got divorced in the middle of the project and just started arguing over who was supposed to pay me for no fault of my own. And that’s where I realized, I was like, “Wow, this business is tough.” I had no control over that. And I think how it evolved over the years is the failures, yes, they’re hard, but I would say it’s more like every project, there’s always those hard parts of those projects, and I think we’re just … You always try and zone into it. I just got obsessive about why are they doing that? Because sometimes it feels like clients are self-sabotaging themselves. Why would you do that? Why are you acting like that? What do you think? But I’m coming from it from a very business, non-emotional, cognitive, critical thinking way. And clients are coming from it from a very emotional, self-focused, expecting way.

(11:53):

And so, I think over the years what I learned just as a matter of survival and just trying to understand, how do we make this better, a big part of making it better was understanding why these things were happening on projects. Because it all felt like it was completely illogical until it wasn’t. And it was like, “Oh yeah, my bad. I’m being way too nice to you, that’s why. That’s why you’re acting like this, because you’re confused.” I think fundamentally the most important thing I learned is that the very best thing I can be for my clients is their contractor and nothing else.

Charley Burtwistle (12:29):

That’s actually a really good way of thinking about it and not one that I’d really thought of before of like of course the GC is going to be coming at it from a business standpoint and of course the client is going to be coming at it from a very emotional standpoint. That’s the roles they’re trying to play and should be playing, but not understanding and accounting for what the other role is is just going to be constant headbutting throughout the entire thing. So, what I want to get into a little bit is I’d like to separate this out a little bit between the pre-construction phase and the expectation setting because I love how you have this listed out in your process page and then during the construction phase, the change management and the client expectations, things like that.

(13:16):

So, let’s start at the top of the funnel. What is your key things that you make sure you hit on in your process every single time when you’re just starting a conversation with the client? I saw even on your website here, you list out your typical prices per square foot. So, you’re already starting to set expectation the first time someone lands on your page. What are some of those next steps that you make sure you always hit on?

Allyson Case Anderson (13:37):

Yeah, I mean, budget is king. They need to understand how much this stuff costs and it’s exorbitantly expensive. Every time I do a bid, it shocks me. I can imagine how they feel. And so I think the budget expectation is always the core focus of any project, whether it’s a $500,000 project, whether it’s a $5 million project. And I think really managing the expectations of what that means, what it includes. Schedule is also something that we get a lot of people that are like, it’s December and they’re like, “We would really like to be in before the holidays next year.” It’s like, “No, an average project takes a year and a half,” and really explaining step-by-step. Bids and schedules work the same way. There are a bunch of reasonable line items that add up to a big line item. And so it’s like on the bids it’s like, yeah, there’s all these reasonable numbers for all the trades that add up to this multimillion dollar budget.

(14:39):

And the schedule is a bunch of reasonable allocations of weeks for each trade that all add up to suddenly year over a year. And I do find that the pre-construction process is there for us to reiterate and reiterate and reiterate because clients have a superpower, which is optimism in the face of anything. And so, it’s like they want to believe … The hardest part is when they have decided on something in their mind based on nothing. I had a client once that was like, our budget was, I came in, and I think it was at $2.4 or something, and they were like, “You know, our budget was $800,000.” And I was like, “When you bought this lot, did you look at other houses? Why did you buy this lot?”

(15:30):

And they were like, “Well, we looked at other houses, we didn’t like them.” I said, “Okay. And those houses were $800,000?” And they were like, “Yeah.” And I said, “Okay, did they look like this?” And they’re like, “No.” I’m like, “No, this is 2000 square feet bigger. It’s super architectural, it’s super contemporary.” When you buy a house, you don’t have your design fees. There’s a 20% right there of whatever you’re doing. And I think with clients, you really have to back it up for them like that, and it’s a fine line. You don’t want to be condescending and you don’t want to be aggressive but you have to be abundantly clear. And I would say that’s the hard skillset for builders of like … And pre-construction is there for the team to work together and really establish that relationship and dynamic before we’re doing anything serious.

Charley Burtwistle (16:23):

Well, that’s a perfect example of, and sorry to cut you off, but what you said earlier where your job is to be a contractor, not a friend. I’m sure a lot of other people would have been like, “Oh, we could probably cut some costs down and get you something really nice for $800,000 that you’ll love,” and then you’re going to finish the project and they’re going to hate it and they’re going to hate you and everything’s going to go poorly from there. The tough love upfront saves a ton of time and tension downstream.

Allyson Case Anderson (16:47):

Yeah. And the thing is, no one’s happy with a favor at the end of the day. It never feels worth it because if you’re a builder, and you’re cutting costs in the beginning, when you’ve been working on that project for even six months, that discount didn’t feel worth it because you’re hurting on money, the margins are tight. We’re not making 200%, 100%, on the job. We’re fighting to net 10%, and that is a low number and it’s by the way, really hard to maintain that and that’s at any markup. And so, with clients, too, you just don’t want them playing the lottery. It’s like we really want the builder being paid what the project is worth to them. Because the clients, it’s like you need the builder on your side, and also just from a leverage standpoint, if the builder feels like they’re getting paid and they’re not doing you any favors, they’re going to come to the table more readily when you have issues. But if your builder feels like they’re doing you favors, well they feel like you owe them a favor. But no one’s actually talking about it ever, it’s just these feelings that everyone has privately that come to a head eight months later in some weird way over a toilet flusher. You know what I mean?

Charley Burtwistle (16:48):

The final straw. Yeah.

Allyson Case Anderson (18:10):

Yeah. Because it’s always over a toilet, but it’s never about the toilet.

Charley Burtwistle (18:13):

That’s so awesome. Yeah. Unless you have a marriage counselor on your team that’s doing these different discoveries between you and the client, you’ve got to be upfront about it and get it out of the way early. It’s always over a toilet.

Allyson Case Anderson (18:27):

Yeah. And it’s always just reminding them, pre-construction is there also as just a subtle reminder that it’s like, “Yes, this is your personal home. Yes, this is your personal money, but it’s still a business transaction.”

Charley Burtwistle (18:37):

Yeah. And so, you communicate over and over, continue to reiterate the point. When it comes to the next step and signing a contract, is that something you really put a ton of time and attention into as well, too, to make sure the things you’ve been verbalizing is contractually in there as well?

Allyson Case Anderson (18:59):

Yeah, I actually set a meeting to go over the contract with clients because sometimes I would have clients that would sign that contract like it was on fire, and they’re just so excited to move forward and then later when we’re enforcing the contract, they feel betrayed, or they feel like we were trying to pull one over on them or something. We have a lot of language in our contract that might be atypical from an AIA contract. I mean, our contract is largely based on an AIA contract. We do AIA contracts, but we have a rider to them. And the point of our contract, and really the point of the review is to show the clients, number one, we’re serious and we’re serious about ourselves, we’re serious about you. We’re serious about the project. The contract is here to establish the rules of play.

(19:47):

This is an endurance sport. We need rules, and there are things that I can and cannot do. I have an immense amount of liability on your project, an immense amount of liability, and therefore you must conduct yourself in this way and in this manner throughout the course of the project, meaning don’t talk to my subs. You talk to my subs, I’m going to charge you a thousand dollars every time you do it. Why am I doing that? I’m doing it so you don’t get yourself in trouble by telling the sub to do something that ends up being a big problem later. And I always tell the clients, “I put this language in here not to trap you, not to punish you. I put it in here because we are solely focused on execution. I am liable for the budget, I am liable for the schedule, but I can only do those within an ecosystem. And if you mess with the ecosystem, I can’t perform, and you may not understand what you’re doing when you’re doing it. And so, it feels very innocent to you, but it still costs me time and money.”

(20:55):

And so, the contract is a really, really important part of that initial process but it’s also something that I use often throughout the whole project because I never want clients to feel like when you’re referencing the contract, you’re having an argument. That contract should be a living, breathing document that we’re talking about and referencing. So, even when I issue a change order, I’m like, “Per our agreement. Per our agreement,” just as a reminder, that’s like, “We have an agreement here. There are terms we’ve agreed to,” because where projects go south is when clients want to operate on their own terms and not on the terms of the agreement.

Charley Burtwistle (21:35):

Yeah. And if it’s not in there, you can say it a million times, I think you maybe referenced this earlier, too, but once someone has an idea in their mind, they see the things that confirm that idea and brush out a lot of the other things. So, unless you put it in writing, read it to them, tell them that there’s going to be a fee associated for breaking that and make them sign it, they don’t really, and I wouldn’t either, no one would, understand the magnitude of like, “No, this isn’t a nice to have, this isn’t a request, this is a way that we … It’s a must have for us to be successful and for you to ultimately get your dream home or your dream project that you want.” It’s beneficial on both sides.

Allyson Case Anderson (22:15):

Yeah, exactly. And the thing is, the clients don’t understand. They’re not contractors, they’re not builders. They don’t know what they’re doing when they’re coming on site. And my subcontractors have the same agreement, by the way. They’re not allowed to talk to the clients. And it’s like, “No, you can’t do that.” We are the middleman, the GC and builder is there to protect the clients from the subs and to protect the subs from the clients. That’s our job. And it’s to make sure that we keep on the straight line from beginning to end. And the project fights you no matter what, the project is always going to throw curve-balls at you so my philosophy is anything that we can be in control of, we should be in control of. There’s no reason for things to be unnecessarily crazy on a project.

Charley Burtwistle (23:09):

Outlining the, “Do not talk to subs,” policy was interesting. Do you call out any other, and this will be a nice natural segue to the construction phase anyways, any other specific communication type verbiage in the agreement of like, “This is how often we’re going to meet, this is what we’re going to talk about, this is maybe the hours that we can text,” or do you call out what the communication will be like moving forward in that agreement as well?

Allyson Case Anderson (23:36):

Yeah, we do a kickoff email at the beginning where we set ground rules for communication. I really encourage all of my team, my staff to unsync their phones from email nights and weekends. There’s nothing after 6p.m. and before 6 a.m. that we can fix so there’s no reason for us to even know about it. All you’re going to do is ruin your night’s sleep. So, I tell the clients, “You can email us at any time, but know that you have everyone’s personal cell phones, so please don’t text after six or before 6 a.m. Other than that, 6 a.m. to 6 p.m., that’s a long time every day for you to be able to get ahold of us.” If you have an emergency, you can reach out to me as CEO or the superintendent, executive charge of construction. And by the way, an emergency is fire or water, and you should be calling 911 first before you call us.

Charley Burtwistle (24:36):

This is what an emergency is, let’s start there.

Allyson Case Anderson (24:43):

This is what an emergency is. And the clients, I will say, they respect that. I would say the hardest part is actually from the employee side where they might be working late, and I’m like, “Don’t break that precedent, don’t confuse anybody.” It’s good for everybody because a lot of times clients, on the weekends is when they’re thinking about things, responding to things. So, I think that’s a reasonable approach. And then throughout the project, it really depends on the project. I do stipulate how many, we call them OAC, owner architect contractor meetings we have, and it just depends on the project. But I’ll allocate a number of how many OAC meetings are included in this price. How many design coordination hours are included in this price. We are very anti-change order.

(25:35):

We don’t like change orders. And so, our contract is very much focused on pre-construction and doing a lot of due diligence and really avoiding unnecessary changes throughout the project. So, we have a lot of like when I say design criteria, it’s like, “Don’t cut corners on design because if you’ve got some interior designer who’s sending you a bunch of Pinterest photos and not actual specifications, I’m going to charge you if I’m running around with that person explaining that that’s not a white oak floor, that’s a pre-finished maple floor and some other builder’s Pinterest photo.”

Charley Burtwistle (26:12):

That’s such an awesome example because I can think perfectly of a million examples of people that have done exactly that. Like, “Oh, this is what I’m trying to do.” It’s like, “Well, what you’re saying and what you’re showing me are two totally different things. So, let’s start there.” Do you guys charge for your change orders or do you not do them all?

Allyson Case Anderson (26:29):

Yes, I charge $500 a change order because we bill at 250 an hour for pre-construction, and there’s no change order that takes me less than two hours to put together. If it’s an unforeseen condition, we won’t, but if it’s a voluntary change order, we’re going to charge for that time regardless of whether or not you approve it. And again, that’s just there where it’s like, “You know guys, we’re trying to maintain your budget, we’re trying to maintain your schedule. Don’t distract us from what’s most important, and establish this in pre-construction.” Pre-construction, you can make those changes, no problem. No problem. But once we’ve hit construction, stay out of our way, let us go.

Charley Burtwistle (27:13):

Absolutely.

Allyson Case Anderson (27:14):

Watch the process. Enjoy. Be free.

Charley Burtwistle (27:17):

Yeah, be free, enjoy. It’s crazy to me that some people don’t charge for change orders. I don’t have the stat on me, but I was just looking through the Association of Professional Builders, their SORCI report that they put out every year, and they have a ton of good stuff in there about how much money it can cost you from your end margin through change orders, but also just how much time that you don’t even think about and those add up over time. So, just continuing to put more and more attention and detail to the beginning and outlining, “This is why we’re doing this, otherwise we’re going to have to charge you, and it’s going to slow stuff down. You’re not going to be in for the holidays that you originally wanted to do,” continues to really reinforce that. As far as visibility, and it’s okay if you don’t, but do you use the Client Portal in Buildertrend?

Allyson Case Anderson (28:07):

Yeah, yeah, the client portal is great, client facing. First of all, it makes you look really professional, and it just gives the clients something that they can log into even just to see what their balance is, like “This is what your project is costing, this is how much you have left over,” to just not have to issue that kind of information and have it readily available for them, it was a game changer for us. I think we started with Buildertrend in 2017, I want to say. Yeah, it definitely upped our game.

Charley Burtwistle (28:39):

For sure. Well, I’m sure you’ve enjoyed some of the recent updates to the Client Portal as well because that was a weird one for us here at Buildertrend. It’s like we’re building our product for GCs, so for a long time it’s like, “Well we’re not going to spend a whole lot of time working on the homeowner portal or the Client Portal because that’s not who’s paying us.” And it’s like that’s such a good tool for our GCs to make them more successful, either being able to cut down on the amount of communication that they have to go through because someone can just log in and look at it instead. But also, the point you just said, just from a professional appearance standpoint, it’s like, “Oh, here’s this app that you can log into, you can check in.” So, over the past year or two, we’ve spent a ton of time trying to make that better for the GCs clients because that’s ultimately going to make our clients better, which is the GC, so it’s cool to hear that you’re taking advantage of that and it’s been beneficial for you.

Allyson Case Anderson (29:29):

Yeah, I think on the sales side of things, builders are always struggling with being commoditized. It’s like we’re always fighting that low bidder. It’s like we’re trying to give the right price then there’s someone that’s just trying to get the job. And I hope that starts going away. I haven’t seen it as much, but I’m still seeing it. But I think when it comes to the process, it’s a game of inches and having a professional software where it subtly gives an indication of what’s differentiating the builders without me having to actually say it. Where it’s like, “Okay, you got Joe Schmoe over here, that’s somehow 20% less. I don’t know how or why, but how did he deliver that bid? What’s in that bid?” It’s like, “Okay, if I’m sending you over a link to Buildertrend, and you have a portal you’re looking into, and you see this detailed process and you understand and in pre-construction you’re getting itemized invoices that you can ACH pay,” that’s a different experience, not only for the clients but also for the architects. It also frames for the architects who they’re working with because they have to adjust, too, I’m sure project to project.

Charley Burtwistle (30:46):

Right. Absolutely. That’s a really good way to put it, is a lot of the intangibles that you have to lean on and promote and account for if you want to stay profitable and if you want to work with the clients that you want to work with. It’s always funny when I hear about people getting underbid by 20% or something like that. I would love to follow up with them if they went with that bid a year from now and be like, “So how was that experience? Would the extra 20% …”

Allyson Case Anderson (31:14):

Yeah, I actually had an architect who kept track.

Charley Burtwistle (31:18):

Oh, really?

Allyson Case Anderson (31:18):

She kept track of the bids that I was losing and then she started a spreadsheet.

Charley Burtwistle (31:23):

That’s awesome.

Allyson Case Anderson (31:25):

Because she was more up and coming, she wasn’t as established, and so her client base really fluctuated and so, she started this spreadsheet to see where my bid was and where they ended up. And the thing is, even if you end up at the same price, at the end of the day it’s a lesser product because if you’re making changes during construction, you are compromised because you don’t have the luxury of time, you don’t have the luxury of resources and so, therefore you don’t have the thought process to really be making good decisions or prudent decisions. In some way, the project suffers. You’ll always get more for less in pre-con than you will adding those changes during construction.

Charley Burtwistle (32:11):

A hundred percent. And even zoom out from just dollars and cents and bricks and sticks, it’s like how much is your mental sanity worth? How much is just knowing exactly where the project is going to be at, exactly how it’s going to go, when to communicate, knowing everything? You don’t need to make changes because you’re building a million-dollar house. I’m sure adding another $20,000 in there somewhere isn’t great for your stress levels. Those are things that aren’t listed out in the line item that you put together, but there are things that matter, and there’s things that people should pay for because of the better experience.

Allyson Case Anderson (32:44):

Yeah, and also the change order feature, too, and I really like, that was a game changer. We used to do change orders. It was a spreadsheet template that was formatted. I’d have to put it in my bid sheet and calculate it. Then I’d have to transfer it to a spreadsheet, then we’d PDF it and send the change order to the client. Then we have to put that PDF in DocuSign and get it signed, and then we’re all keeping the PDF maybe. And the nice thing about having a portal like that is clients can just go into the change orders and see what was approved. They can see where their budget started and where it ended. Because a lot of times when projects, I guarantee any builder will agree with me, when you have a project that’s gone south, there’s been a ton of change orders. Projects that don’t have a lot of change orders don’t go south. And we had one project just last year, 81 change orders and I was like, “We’re never going to see the end of this project.” Boom. We didn’t. There’s no way. However, for better or for worse, Buildertrend at least helped because what I try and do in those situations is say, “You voluntarily increased your budget X percent,” to frame it for them. And in that particular case I was like, “You have voluntarily increased your project 53%.”

Charley Burtwistle (34:15):

Yeah, just having that level of visibility.

Allyson Case Anderson (34:18):

Yeah, it’s like these are not unforeseen conditions, these are just changes. This is like you redesigning the project as we’re going. We talked about this. But for them, to be able to put it in dollars and cents in black and white, to be already having those conversations but not also having the confusion of the documentation, it’s like I can just quickly pull up a spreadsheet. They can do the same thing, they can export the same spreadsheet. At least we’re all talking about the same thing. And it is critical, especially when you’re having hard conversations and you’re having them about money.

Charley Burtwistle (34:53):

Oh, absolutely. In another life you would have made a fantastic Buildertrend salesperson. So, if you ever want to look for a change of pace and come out to Omaha, Nebraska, I could probably find a role for you.

Allyson Case Anderson (35:03):

Maybe.

Charley Burtwistle (35:05):

We are way over time here. I wanted to at least hit on this towards the end though. You also do speaking engagements. I saw on your website there’s a little contact info there, so people listening and wanting to hear more or hear the people hear more, could you tell us a little bit about that? Maybe the best way for them to get in contact with you?

Allyson Case Anderson (35:23):

Yeah, absolutely. They can go right to my website, www.integrobuilders.com and there’s a tab for speaking engagements. Go ahead and fill out the form. I’m happy to give you a list of what I talk about. It’s primarily executive-focused, client-management-focused and business-focused. For example, I’ll do 50 Shades of Cray, How to Manage Crazy Clients, which is really about project management, and I have a Hope For the Best, Plan For the Worst, which is about how to protect your business from the hard years and fail-safes you should be putting in place for when it’s slow, or you end up in litigation.

Charley Burtwistle (36:01):

Awesome. Yeah, not great places to be, but good times to learn about them.

Allyson Case Anderson (36:07):

Yeah.

Charley Burtwistle (36:07):

Well Allyson, thank you so much for joining us. This was incredible. I learned a ton. My favorite thing about doing this is everything that you say and all of our guests say is, also directly applicable to me in my role outside of being the podcast host here at Buildertrend, I feel like I’m getting a free college education just doing this interview. So, I appreciate it very much, and I hope you have a fantastic rest of your day.

Allyson Case Anderson (36:32):

All right, thanks a lot. Really appreciate being here.

Charley Burtwistle (36:34):

We’ll talk soon. Bye. Well, we just heard from Allyson Case Anderson, founder and CEO of Integro Builders talking about client management. I am always so grateful that I get to do this job and talk to people like Allyson because it’s like a free education for me. I reference this a lot, but hosting “The Building Code” is not the only thing I do here at Buildertrend. And I am constantly doing a ton of project management, talking to a ton of quote unquote clients, which would be our internal employees here at Buildertrend, setting the proper expectations of when projects are going to get delivered and get across the finish line, making sure that what they want is actually what they want and when they need it, is actually when they need it. So, I learned a ton just from doing this podcast. I take notes as always, and I’m always blown away by how similar our industries are.

(37:28):

Some things that she said in there that really stood out to me was having those hard truths early on in the process, outlining why this is going to be difficult and don’t paint this really pretty rainbow at the beginning that everything’s going to be smooth. It’s hard and, obviously, building a home is a much longer duration, higher dollar spend than a lot of things I do. But you’re going to have to talk about it at some point, right? So, you either talk about it at the beginning and make sure you’re all on the same page before you start this journey together, or you talk about it when it becomes a problem. She used the example, it’s always the toilet, the boiling point, the final straw that broke the camel’s back. So, improving, having those hard conversations, being the contractor, not the friend, is just going to set you up for success down the road. And I think that’s a mindset that more and more people in the industry are starting to embrace and it is really paying dividends downstream from there.

(38:32):

I have a couple of stats in here that we didn’t get to reference during the interview is 48% of the rework in U.S. construction projects comes from miscommunication, leading to significant costs and delays. We have another one, $31.3 billion annually is the estimated cost of rework in the construction industry attributed to poor data and miscommunication. So, just take the time, take the attention, take the extra work, making sure that you’re all on the same page. I love what she did with the contracts as well, too, really, really outlining everything that you or she as the GC needs the client to follow and understand, walking them through that, understand that there are financial repercussions to breaking that, to really drive that point home and just setting everyone up for success.

(39:21):

So, I really enjoyed the interview. Allyson, if you’re listening to this, thank you very much for teaching me today and hopefully our listeners found it valuable as well, too. As always, if you want more, check us out on Facebook at The Building Code Crew, like, review, subscribe everywhere you listen to podcasts, leave a comment, do whatever you got to do. But if not, I will see you here next time at “The Building Code.” I’m Charley Burtwistle. Peace.