How to win more jobs with better lead management: JNT Developers

David Hopkins, VP Sales and Chief Estimator at JNT Developers – Dallas, Texas – joins us on The Building Code podcast to talk about managing the sales and leads process.

With around 20 employees, JNT Developers classifies as a specialty contractor, but really, this company does it all. From multifamily and commercial construction to residential builds and a whole lot of roofing, it’s safe to say that JNT’s work is diverse. And when it comes to David’s role, he’s handling everything from the incoming lead process to seeing their customers and investment partners all the way through pre-construction.

So, what does the lead process look like for JNT Developers? It all begins with an interview – usually over the phone, but sometimes in the office or on a jobsite if possible. They like to get to know their customers, and they want their customers to get to know them. It’s crucial to make sure everyone’s a fit for each other before a project starts. And when they began doing this a couple years ago, they noticed something great: a major increase in the quality of their customers and the fit between them.

If you looked back at how JNT started with their lead process, things have really changed. According to David, “… we just started as basic as you can.” Their team was entering data into Excel spreadsheets, utilizing Google Docs in its infancy, and writing down too many things on paper. When it came to inspections, those notes were also hand-written. From there, they’d input any secondary data into whatever system they could find that would work. Once Buildertrend came into the picture, David and his team felt instant relief. At first, having a place to store customer information was the biggest help for David. Later on, they opened up to using more features.

Another JNT favorite: the Buildertrend customer portal. From demoing the portal when they meet with a customer to utilizing it on every project, this feature is a big one for JNT Developers. During the initial interview with JNT, customers sometimes mention being burned by bad contractors or going through a bad project; and, JNT has uncovered that these are usually due to lack of communication and a feeling on the customer’s side like they didn’t know what was going on. But, the Buildertrend client portal solves all of that and more for the customer. Small things like weather delays or deliveries not showing up aren’t a big deal when the customer isn’t surprised by them, and Buildertrend easily facilitates this communication.

When it comes to customers finding JNT, what’s their secret? Their biggest lead source is online marketing. The owners of JNT have put money into doing it right and using their historical data to adjust – and it seems to be working. The rest of their leads come from referrals, networking events and, of course, social media.

If David can leave you with anything from this podcast, here are his top three suggestions for how to best manage leads and the sales process:

  • Know your sources. Using a tool like Buildertrend to know your lead sources is a great idea. Maybe a couple leads are referrals from a past customer. These are great, but you can’t forget about these customers – you should be taking care of them, as well as your other sources
  • It’s all about follow-up. You might have all the leads in the world, but they’ll mean nothing if you can’t follow-up effectively and stay on top of them.
  • Qualify your customers. It may feel against the grain, but you need to qualify your customers to fit what you’re looking for as a business. If you can stick to doing what you do best and only taking on those customers, things will run a lot smoother for your company. It’s OK to say “no” sometimes, rather than always saying “yes” to everything.

David Hopkins | JNT Developers

Tom Houghton:

You’re listening to “The Building Code.” I’m Tom Houghton.

Paul Worth:

I’m Paul Worth.

Tom Houghton:

Joining us via phone today is David Hopkins from JNT Developers.

David Hopkins:

Hey guys, how’s it going?

Paul Worth:

Doing great.

Tom Houghton:

Great, how are you doing?

David Hopkins:

Very good, very good.

Tom Houghton:

David, you are based out of …

David Hopkins:

We are in Dallas, Texas.

Tom Houghton:

How’s the weather down there in Dallas?

David Hopkins:

Well, it was rainy this weekend, but it’s finally starting to get nice again. And as we move into summer, it’s going to be finally done with the cold.

Paul Worth:

We’re happy about that.

Tom Houghton:

Yeah, we’re ready to be done with the cold.

Paul Worth:

We’re having a bad theme. We talk about weather a lot on this podcast.

Tom Houghton:

Because it affects the business.

Paul Worth:

Because it’s been tough. You’re right, yeah. Especially your business. What kind of work do you guys do?

David Hopkins:

We are a general contractor, and we service all of Dallas Fort Worth area. And we actually expand into the region as far as certain types of work that we do. But the core of the business is general contracting and roofing. So, on the note on the weather, yeah, when it’s in the rainy season, it makes things very difficult, especially for new construction.

Paul Worth:

So, internally, we segment our clients four different ways, home builders, remodelers, specially contracting, which would be like roofing, siding windows, and then light commercial. Would you say you’re pretty heavily in the third, the specialty contracting?

David Hopkins:

Yeah, with those four things listed, I would say specialty just because we reach so much. At the core it’s multi-family and commercial construction, but also the roofing side of our company is huge. And on top of that, we do some residential new construction as well. So, it’s kind of a large mix. So, I think specialty would be the best way to say it.

Paul Worth:

Yeah, that’s something that we work on a lot is because nobody’s really just in one bucket or very rare amount of our clients are in one bucket. You’re mixing and that diversification is good.

Tom Houghton:

Yeah, we talked about that earlier. You got to diversify

Paul Worth:

It’s a callback to episode three.

Tom Houghton:

Exactly, good reference.

Paul Worth:

Tell us more about your business. How many employees do you have?

David Hopkins:

Employees, total? I think we just made a couple of new hires. So, I think we’re 15 internally as far as employees go. And then we have a team of independent guys that do the roofing, roofing sales is a little bit different as far as employees go, but all in all, maybe 20 to 25 give or take when the season’s at its peak for roofing.

Tom Houghton:

You mainly focus on the sales side, correct? Maybe you can give us some more background on what you do.

David Hopkins:

Yes, for sure. So, in my role, VP of sales, then I also serve as our chief estimator, so everything from the incoming lead process, all the way seeing our clients and any of our investor partners all the way through pre-construction. So, that’s generally my day-to-day role.

Paul Worth:

And you said chief estimator, there’s two sides of estimating, right? The system you might use to calculate costs, but also having a database of those costs. Is that fair?

David Hopkins:

Yeah, exactly. For the database side of it, we’ve been building that for probably all of my 10 years. So, for five years with JNT, we’ve been building that up. And then as far as the actual implementation of those items, as far as putting it into an estimate that you could do a client, that’s a whole other side, yeah. And I think that that starts with getting the information from the client during the lead process, using something like Buildertrend to get that information correctly and efficiently makes you much more successful when you’re putting bids together to give to a client. So, I think they do go hand in hand, and they’re both things that have to be managed to be successful.

Paul Worth:

Yeah, we actually just had a feature spotlight on lead management. And we did talk about that through the lens of doing it in Buildertrend, but just going back a little bit before Buildertrend or while you were using that, talk about the process you have. I think I called it a qualification layer because you’ll get a ton of leads, and not everybody’s a good fit for what you do as a business. So, can you talk a little bit about your lead process? Like the steps in it or at least focusing on the qualification level?

David Hopkins:

Yeah, sure. So, just prior to everything coming in, or rather when it first comes into us, the word qualify, I really like because that’s what we teach on our front end too. And I actually call it a client interview. I don’t know if that’s the best terminology to use, but we really like to give our clients the opportunity to have an interview both ways. We want to ask them questions, but we want to give them a platform to tell us things that they’ve really enjoyed and also, things that they’ve had negatively impact them with contractors in the past. So, using an interview, that’s the process we go through.

As far as the initial admin lead coming right in, we just built a Google form that basically lets us put the data quickly into Buildertrend. So, it generates a PDF. We have a bunch of pre-made questions that will give us how to route it correctly in the lead opportunities. But yeah the qualifying is, I would say, the most important thing. And once we started doing that a couple of years ago, we’ve seen just a huge increase in the overall quality of the clients that we’re working with, the type of projects, the fit between the two, the fit between the project and us. And I think that makes it all that much better.

 

Paul Worth:

Yeah, Wes from Trunk Bay on a previous episode talked about that. It’s very important to their business they’re doing high-end long projects like custom homes, but even in a shorter project, you really are getting into a relationship with your client, and you want to make sure that it’s a healthy one because there are going to be ups and downs. And so, that’s good. What does that client interview look like in terms of a vehicle? Is that a phone call or is that a face-to-face meeting? Do you guys have a preference on which one works better for you?

David Hopkins:

Yeah, that’s a great question. And I think for the most part, I would say maybe 80% of the time it’s a phone call because a lot of our clients are just not in the area. If they’re investors, they’re outside of DFW, but we always push. If they’d like to come into the office or if we could meet them at the site or at their facility, then love that as well. But doing it in that theme of it’s an interview, it’s no pressure, it’s not a sales pitch. It’s to give them the opportunity to get to know us and take away that element of, “Oh, this is just another contractor that’s trying to sell me something.” We really want to get to know them.

Paul Worth:

I love that. We talk a lot about elevating the industry, not to put too much on our shoulders, but we do think Buildertrend, that’s one of our initiatives is to bring it out of the shadows of, “Hey, every time I talk to a contractor, I think I’m going to get screwed over,” putting a little bit more companies above the board. I think that’s a good part of it. So, you prefer to do it in person, over the phone, but majority is over the phone. Do you prefer to do it in person because it just adds that element of face to face, getting to know me even better?

David Hopkins:

Yeah, exactly. Nowadays everything is so instantaneous and fast and these little micro transactions between people, text, social media, those things can all be good and used positively, but also if you’re not meeting face-to-face, and you’re not shaking hands, or I just think there’s something that’s generally lost nowadays. So, I think getting to meet in person is just a perk.

Paul Worth:

Yeah, that’s great. I guess where I was going with that for all the listeners and maybe even for you, this is what we’re doing right now because we’ve got you on video, a Zoom video chat. That’d be a good little middle ground for you guys.

David Hopkins:

Yeah, actually Zoom is new for me. So, we do a lot of design build as well. And our architects have been pushing this. So, we’ve done a few of these with our clients, sharing the plans and engineering phases. So, I’m new to it, but I really like it because you’re right, it is a good bridging point I think.

Paul Worth:

Yeah, right. I don’t like seeing myself on camera, but Hollywood Tom, you’ve got no problem with that.

Tom Houghton:

That’s me. It comes with the name, I guess.

Paul Worth:

It comes with the territory for you. But that might be a good little tip, actually for our sales team, we’re doing hundreds of demos a day. I’ve thought about, I got to clean them up quite a bit, but I’ve thought about throwing them on video because I think there is something to that element of seeing somebody’s face. And I think you probably would have closed better as JNT Developers, you actually know you do face-to-face. So, something for the listeners to think about.

Tom Houghton:

Yeah, a good way to bridge that gap. Let’s talk about how your process has evolved. You mentioned you’ve been doing this for a couple of years now with putting leads into Buildertrend. What did it look like before?

David Hopkins:

Yeah, that’s a great question, too. Really looking back on that, we just started as basic as I think you can, as a contractor goes. We were entering data into Excel spreadsheets, into the Google Docs in its infancy. And a lot of things were still just written by hand. Even inspections in person, we would go and meet a client, and you would write all your notes by hand and then you’d have to input all that data secondary into whatever system you could find that would work. And for me, Buildertrend, even when we started using it, just a couple of just basic things, just giving yourself a place to put the client’s info is a huge help. Not having to rely on three or four different systems plus hand notes, as far as your incoming leads and your incoming inspections, that was really as advanced as it was at the beginning. It was just a lot of pencil writing, a lot of note taking, and a lot of using your memory to try to remember everything.

Tom Houghton:

Yeah, are you guys currently using the customer portal for your jobs?

David Hopkins:

Oh yeah, absolutely.

Tom Houghton:

So, in your sales process, are you guys demoing Buildertrend?

David Hopkins:

Yeah, definitely. We have I guess you’d call it a dummy account. We have a couple of clients that are cool with us showing their projects. We always clear that, obviously, if somebody is coming in, we’ll ask them in advance like, “Hey, would you mind if we showed so-and-so your project to demo it?” And most clients are cool with it, but when you’re in commercial construction, some clients don’t want anything about their projects being known. Maybe it’s a premiere, we have an art studio that we’re working on, they don’t want any of that to be known. So, in those instances we have a dummy account that we basically put up the owner site in our conference room, and we just go through it. We show them everything from the Daily Logs to the Schedule to Messages what all the features look like.

Paul Worth:

And does that connect with them?

David Hopkins:

Oh yeah, for sure. I think because going back to the interview, most clients tend to feel like when they mention something negative, it’s been that in their past, it was that they didn’t have communication or they didn’t know what was going on. And as soon as they see that client portal, you can tell by their face like, “Oh wow, we never thought we could have something like this.” And then those fears start to wash away, and you can get down to the root of whatever else they have going on.

Paul Worth:

Absolutely. And have you found that during the job, when there have been changes and a common one like change orders or delay to the schedule, but because the communication is really there the whole time that their reaction to those things is less negative or do they understand more?

David Hopkins:

Absolutely, and we from sales meetings to project management stuff, we teach that if the communication’s there, and you can deliver it effectively, those negative things like a delay because of weather or you ordered some tile, and it didn’t get there, those things aren’t big issues anymore when the client knows about them. And when they can see that there’s a clear history of how it happened. It’s only when those change orders are surprises that they become this huge negative thing. And Buildertrend facilitates that easily. If you train your client, and you show them how to use it, and you’ve been showing it to them since the first time you met them, then they’re comfortable with it from day one. This is construction, so things happen. And when there is an inevitable change order, it’s not a surprise because they know about it the moment that it happens, and they don’t have to be surprised by it.

Paul Worth:

Right, I think that’s a great takeaway because we talked about this before that I think the thought in construction in the past and these days with some people is, “Well, if there’s a delay I’m going to get in trouble or the client’s going to get mad,” and then we try to hide things from the client because of that. But I’ve always thought, and I’m glad you confirmed it, and our clients do is that if you just communicate the whole time, the clients are more mad about being kept in the dark because they feel like you’re trying to pull not only that over them, but God knows what else. And so, communication is super important.

Tom Houghton:

Yeah, I think you’re setting those expectations right off the get go. If you are showing them Buildertrend and showing them how to use it in that sales process, I know we try to really stress to all of our clients, leverage Buildertrend as a marketing tool for your business to help you close those leads. And then also, like you said, it sets that expectation because then they know, “Okay, if something comes up, there’s a change order, et cetera, I’ll take care of that through Buildertrend.”

David Hopkins:

Yeah, I agree with all of that. And I think even for us, I admittedly, we didn’t take advantage of it as early as we should have. We knew Buildertrend was a great tool, and I think once we started really positioning ourselves more for those client interviews and making that a bigger focus on the front end, we realized how powerful it was. I still remember the first time showing a client in person the owner site, it changes everything. When you see their reaction to it, even if you’re just showing it to them on your iPad in the field, just pull it up and show it to them, when they see that, it’s just like this warm wash over them. And they just say, “Oh, well, okay.” It’s such a relief that they don’t even know what to say sometimes. It’s a wild experience.

Paul Worth:

That’s awesome.

Tom Houghton:

That’s great.

Paul Worth:

That was a whole ad for Buildertrend. But I think the real takeaway is setting expectations and communication. You could probably do that a few different platforms. I encourage you to use Buildertrend. It helps everybody out here. But I think honestly, again, going back to just the construction industry in general, just a good lesson about expectations and then constant communication because I think we’ve talked about this. It does not make sense to the 2019 buyer that there is such a lack of communication and a lack of a platform at all because in every other part of their life, they have those platforms.

David Hopkins:

Yeah, that’s true. There’s so much out there as far as the client to do their stuff, but there’s so many different ways for them to communicate and all these other ways in their life, like social media, but then this huge project they’re doing, they don’t feel like there’s any way for them to connect with our contractor, but that’s not true.

Paul Worth:

Yeah, exactly. Pulling on that lead question because I want to give people some perspective about lead management. So, how do people find you typically and how many leads, ballpark, me a week are you guys getting in and having to basically layer that qualification on?

David Hopkins:

Sure, and I would say we have a huge amount of leads that do come from our marketing dollars as far as Google searching and things like that, SEO. And that’s something that the owners of JNT have put money into for years and making it the right way. Putting things very precisely for the type of clients that we want. And that data comes from those interviews that we do, and then looking at how the projects ultimately end up. So, we’ve taken basically the historical data of all the projects we’ve done, what’s been working, and then we put that back into the marketing revenue to get the right kind of leads coming from the internet. But we have a huge portion of our leads that come from referrals. I would say probably at this stage, it’s easily 50/50. Half of everything we get comes from referrals or word of mouth. We do a ton of networking events. We do a ton of social media and just the leads alone from Facebook and from Instagram and other things like that in the last maybe year has just gone up dramatically.

 

Tom Houghton:

Can I ask about those events? I’ve been hearing a lot of our clients actually doing this as educational events. Is that what you guys are posing these as?

David Hopkins:

Sometimes they are, yeah. There’s definitely the opportunity for us to be on an instructor level to our clients as far as a lot of the events we’ve been going to recently have been in the multifamily game because that’s something we’ve been really passionate about recently, but we’ve had the opportunity at those events to get up and basically instruct and say, “Hey, this is how you inspect these properties the right way. This is how you do your due diligence. This is how you look for a contractor.” So, what we’ve been trying to do is just put ourselves out there saying, “Hey, this is how you act as a contractor in these spaces. And this is what you look for as the client to find the best contractor.” And basically eliminating that Bato of, “Hey, everybody that’s a contractor wants to keep everything to themselves. Don’t share anything. Don’t work with each other in any way. Don’t give away any secrets.” The way to be successful nowadays is to be open as a contractor, we have to share with our clients our process.

Paul Worth:

Totally agree. Matt Reisenger at International Builders’ Show, he did a whole talk about this, where in Austin, Texas, where he’s from, nobody was charging for bids. Clients would come to him, expect to do hours of work, they would then hand that estimate over and they wouldn’t get the job or they would. So, he, instead of just doing that on his own to start charging, he got them all together and said, “Hey, we need to start doing this as a group.” And so, I think that the construction industry would serve from taking that step of not trying to keep everything to themselves, but then just trying to share best practices.

David Hopkins:

Yeah, I believe that’s true. I guess we’re all for a good competition, right? If we’re in a group of good contractors that are treating clients the right way, there’s more than enough for everybody to go around and us creating a network or an alliance of contractors that are doing things the correct way. And as far as correct, I mean, just treating people with respect, being honest, being open, there’s only good to come from that. And for all of us, not just for one or two of us that are doing it. We can change the industry to get rid of all these negative preconceptions about contractors taking advantage of people. Or like I said, the negativity that comes on the front end when you first meet a client, those things can be washed away if we’re all doing the same thing.

Paul Worth:

Yeah, we have hundreds, literally, hundreds of builders in the Dallas area. Maybe we should just be that common thread.

Tom Houghton:

We should get a group together.

Paul Worth:

Get everybody to Cheddar’s or something, Applebee’s, knock out a meeting room and about a keg of Coors Light. And let’s talk every month. All right, we’re going to get back on track because I had a follow-up question because I thought what you said was great about the owners of your business, how they think about their business. So, you were saying that you look at not only the sources, you’re getting the paid sources, obviously, your close percentage there, but then you look on how the job performed in terms of I only assume was it a smooth job, but and/or more importantly, did you make money on that job? Is that how you look at that to then loop back in and decide where you’re going to spend your marketing dollars?

David Hopkins:

Yeah, exactly. I think we like to look at overall client satisfaction obviously is number one. And then looking at things like you go through Buildertrend, you have your scheduling data, you can see where are we on schedule? Were there delays, but what were they for? And then looking at how many change orders? How many … And maybe change orders ties into was this project a project that had plans and engineering, or was this a project that didn’t have plans and engineering? And then you can weigh up like, “Okay, so on average, if we’re doing commercial tenant build-outs and they have plans and engineering, we tend to be more likely on time and the client tends to be happier.”

And I think that’s where you take that data and then you plug it into what are you really doing best and find your identity as a contractor. When we looked at our data, we saw that the way we had built JNT, the way we build our project management system and our sales system, it heavily was leaning towards investors and we realized, “Okay, let’s position ourselves for that type of client in the commercial realm and in the multifamily realm, it seems to fit beautifully.”

Paul Worth:

Yeah, we talked about this last time. There’s a certain point in your business that you stop making decisions off gut, which again is not bad if that’s all you have, because you know yourself and your industry, but at a certain point, you start making decisions off data, and you have to have a system to house all that data. You can’t make those decisions unless you have that historical information there, which is really important.

Tom Houghton:

Maybe we could wrap up with this. If you could give other contractors maybe three suggestions for how to best manage your leads and/or the sales process, what would that look like?

David Hopkins:

Yeah, I really like that question. I think the number one thing is you have to know your sources and if you don’t know where leads are coming from, or you think that maybe you can just remember, it just doesn’t work. Something like Buildertrend, being able to track that is number one. So, as far as the first thing, I would say you have to know where your sources are, and you have to take care of your sources. If you don’t know, if you’ve got a couple of your clients that are just throwing you leads left and right, you need to take care of that client. You need to make sure you’re calling and saying thank you and making it right. As far as that, you need to be able to track your follow-ups. So, your second thing is all the leads in the world mean nothing if you can’t follow up effectively, and you can’t stay on top of it.

Turning in your estimates on time is one thing, but the communication and follow-ups is the thing that’s going to close deals, especially big ones. Commercial, multi-family stuff, you’re going to wait a lot longer. And if you don’t have a system to follow up, you’re going to lose those deals. And then last, I think, and you said at the very beginning, ironically, but qualifying your customer. If you’re not qualifying them, so you take your sources, you’re doing good follow-ups, all that stuff is great. But if you’re not qualifying yourself to fit with who you do at the best for, making sure you found your identity, then you’re never going to reach your full potential as a contractor, especially in a market like Dallas. There’s just so much going on. It’s easy to take every single thing that comes at you and say, “I’m going to do this one and I’m going to do that one.” But if you can hone your skill, figure out what you do best, know your sources, do your follow-ups well, you’re going to blow everybody else away, and you’re going to do it the right way.

Paul Worth:

The third point of qualification, it’s a good book end to this episode is that the real reason you do that is not only to make more money and have the right job, but you could spend 70% of your time chasing your tail with people that will never A, sign a deal with you because they weren’t serious, B, spend the right amount of money where you guys actually make a profit, or C …

Tom Houghton:

Or C, you don’t want to have a difficult client to work with, somebody who meshes well with your personality and how you work.

David Hopkins:

Yeah, I think a lot of times it’s easy to get stuck in a cycle of thinking that you have to serve everyone the same and you should serve your clients the same with respect with gratitude. But you are a business, so you should be serving those that are serving you and being able to deliver great for a certain type of client. If you can identify that, well then go all in, triple down and go for that. If your thing is commercial, go for that. If you’re better at residential homeowner projects because you’ve built your project systems that way, then go all in there. But triple down and go for it, and know it because you have that data to back it up.

Paul Worth:

Last thing, just because I just love this stuff. And we’ve talked about this over and over with people, this idea of referral marketing. Do you speak to that before, during or after the construction project with your clients? Do you actually ask for referrals?

David Hopkins:

Oh, yeah, from the first moment that we’re talking to people, and we were starting to gauge interest, we’re letting them know most of the time that our business is coming from that. Like I said, at least 50% of everything we have coming in is from referrals, and we don’t shy away from it. Let people know, “Hey, that is how we are successful, but if you’re happy, if you have someone that you know,” especially in a business setting, and not only connecting you with like say mom, dad, brother, sister, but connecting you with other business relations. If you’re working with a commercial client, find out if they can get you connected with the property manager, see if they can get you with the commercial real estate agent, maybe the broker. There’s so many ways to get yourself positioned better as a contractor in those scenarios. And just simply asking for referral, just like, “Hey, send me to your buddies,” no, “Send me to your business relationships. Put me in front of people that can make decisions so that I can serve them just like I served you.”

 

Paul Worth:

That’s a good point. So, not only do you ask for referrals, but you really speak to who specifically you would like them to refer you to. That’s a great tip.

Tom Houghton:

That’s even more qualification. You’re doing the qualification process right there.

Paul Worth:

We’re just qualifying on top of qualifying.

Tom Houghton:

Yeah, that’s qualificationception.

Paul Worth:

That’s quality qualification.

Tom Houghton:

That’s good.

Paul Worth:

Thank you.

Tom Houghton:

That’s good. All right, David, thank you so much for your time and joining us on the podcast. We had a great time talking to you about leads. Of course, if you have any more questions about anything we’ve discussed here, please check out our show notes on the show notes page at buildertrend.com/podcast.

Paul Worth:

Yeah, JNT. Are you guys on social media?

David Hopkins:

Yes, definitely. JNT Developers on Facebook, Georgia Brew is our CEO, I’m David Hopkins. We’re both pretty active on there, so you can find either of us and thanks both Paul and Tom for having me on today, man. I really appreciate it.

Paul Worth:

This was great.

Tom Houghton:

This was fantastic.

Paul Worth:

All right, David. Thanks, appreciate you.

David Hopkins:

Thank you, guys.

Tom Houghton:

Make sure you check out our shownotes page. Also, don’t forget to subscribe and rate our podcast. Thanks so much for listening, and we’ll see you next time on “The Building Code.”

Paul Worth:

Appreciate you.


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