Habitat for Humanity of Omaha

Tom Houghton:

You’re listening to “The Building Code.” I’m Tom Houghton.

Paul Wurth:

I’m Paul Wurth.

Tom Houghton:

I’ll introduce our guest for this episode in just one second, but I want to make a quick note to all of our listeners. We have a great deal for our June 2019 Buildertrend University. You can buy two tickets and get one free. This is a great opportunity for your team to learn more about Buildertrend. Our June Buildertrend university is on June 19th and 20th in Omaha, Nebraska. All you have to do to sign up is just go to the show notes page at buildertrend.com/podcast. Click on the link there to register for BTU and make sure you mention the podcast when you register. And now I’ll introduce our guest for this episode. Today, we have Ken Mar from Habitat for Humanity Omaha joining us. Hi Ken.

Ken Mar:

Hey guys, how are you?

Tom Houghton:

Great. Thanks for asking.

Ken Mar:

We’re in a great mood.

Tom Houghton:

It’s a great day, truly.

Ken Mar:

As I am.

Tom Houghton:

Yeah.

Paul Wurth:

So Ken, welcome.

Ken Mar:

Thanks for having me.

Paul Wurth:

Ken’s a friend of the program, a friend of mine, a friend of Buildertrend. That’s why we have you on.

Ken Mar:

Thanks for having me.

Paul Wurth:

Yeah.

Tom Houghton:

Ken, maybe give us a background to start off, first off, about Habitat for Humanity Omaha, and speak about your position and your team there.

Ken Mar:

So Habitat for Humanity of Omaha has been around since 1984. Geez, when I started there back in late 2010, early 2011, we had about 14, 15 employees, and today we’re over 110 employees. So when you look at it from a nonprofit aspect of it, it’s like exponential growth, because you just don’t have that backing. A lot of the discussion has been around Habitat is, “Geez, how do you grow so fast?” And of course we’re all community driven. We’re driven by as much as what the community wants us to do. So we’ve continued to grow because the advocacy needs and the needs of families around the North Omaha area that we serve continues to grow, as well as kind of the advocacy part of it with the home ownership side, as well as just anything in general regarding home ownership. We fall into that range.

Paul Wurth:

For those who don’t know… I mean, everybody knows about Habitat for Humanity in general, but let’s just say you don’t. What is Habitat for Humanity? And I know you guys do here locally a couple different things like the ReStore. Can you explain everything you guys do?

Ken Mar:

Right. So there’s a… Boy. There’s a lot of things that people don’t know that we do. Everyone kind of encapsulates Habitat around, “Geez, Jimmy Carter kind of invented you guys, right? In the 80s when he was finished with his term of presidency?” And really we’ve been around long before that. Basically what we do is we build affordable housing and it’s simple, decent, affordable housing. And it’s nothing more than that. There’s an affordable housing crisis in Omaha’s areas and in the US as well. What we do is we build homes and families apply and then those families buy the home from Habitat at an appraised value. They purchased the home from us and they pay a mortgage. And from there, Paul you talked a little bit about ReStore, and those monies generated in our ReStores go right back the operations and build more houses for us.

Ken Mar:

So we have two stores in Omaha. One is on 24th and Leavenworth, just south of Leavenworth Street. And then we have one on 108th and Maple as well. And between those two stores are about 45,000 feet total. One’s one that is a really large store, about 25,000, 28,000 square feet. And it’s a store that we opened in 2012 and it generates about $1.3 million in revenue. And it just does a wonderful job of one, telling the story of what you can do by not throwing things away. It keeps stuff out of landfills. It makes people renovate, restore things, and it gives that general idea that you’re here for the community. And it’s more that green idea that everyone’s been pressing.

Paul Wurth:

Have you been to ReStore before?

Tom Houghton:

I actually haven’t.

Paul Wurth:

It’s really cool.

Tom Houghton:

Yeah. What would you find there?

Paul Wurth:

Well yeah, that’s a good question. So this is the program that contractors, some local vendors like suppliers, and then even like your just normal homeowners, when they’re demoing or have extra material, they donate it to you guys and then you sell it. Is that correct?

Ken Mar:

Right. It’s a lot like the Goodwill model, but instead of clothes, we take stuff out of your garage.

Paul Wurth:

There you go.

Ken Mar:

That was kind of the initial genesis of it is, you might have two or three two-by-fours left over from a job that you had in your garage, instead of throwing it out like most people do, just call ReStore or you drop it by the stores and we basically resell it to somebody like me who just happens to need a couple two-by-fours, I’ll come by and get it. But what it’s turned into, it’s turned into multiple things as far as of people just donating things. And it could be lawn mowers, it’s furniture, it’s furnishings. It’s basically anything under the sun that we’ll take, other than clothes.

Ken Mar:

But what’s really exciting is we also started a new project called Deconstruction about three, four years ago that’s powered by the Nebraska Environmental Trust. And it’s basically to keep stuff out of landfills. So what that project is, is as we go out and we’ll demo 30 homes a year with our construction group, instead of basically tearing it down and it going to the landfill, we take it down piece of wood by piece of wood that comes down and we resell it at the ReStore. And so it takes out, just think of how much a house coming down would take, probably five or six dump truck loads of just stuff. Let’s call it. Well, it’s taken out and not put in the landfill and it’s taken right to the stores.

Paul Wurth:

And is that a program just local at the Omaha chapter, or is that across the US? Can people in other states find their…

Ken Mar:

There’s Deconstruction projects all over the US, but within Nebraska it’s only found in Omaha as far as the whole Deconstruction project with Habitat.

Paul Wurth:

And the ReStore.

Ken Mar:

And the ReStore.

Paul Wurth:

Is the ReStore concept all over?

Ken Mar:

Yes, it is. There’s 750 ReStores all over the US and just like every affiliate, they’re a little bit different on how they’re managed, and also what they bring in as well, what’s donated. So some specialize in medical products that they’ll bring in, some specialize in purchased paint or purchased products like in Des Moines. But as far as the ReStore in its truest sense in Omaha is, is truly stuff that’s donated. And that’s what we sell. We do carry paint as that we’ll purchase, it’s used paint, but it’s reconditioned and sold under the Amazon model. It’s an Amazon product, not made by Amazon the company.

Paul Wurth:

Yeah, I was confused.

Ken Mar:

But the company is called Amazon paint.

Paul Wurth:

Oh, okay.

Ken Mar:

Yeah.

Paul Wurth:

Got it. That’s really cool. Tom, you’ll go this weekend.

Tom Houghton:

I will.

Paul Wurth:

Yeah.

Ken Mar:

There’s a portion of the store called the Market and everyone who steps in it will love it. Not that the store’s not great, but it’s refurbished, it’s restores items that just, you’ll walk in there and you’ll buy something.

Paul Wurth:

Basically it’s like Target. Like if you go in, you’re buying something.

Tom Houghton:

You’re buying something, yeah.

Ken Mar:

Probably more than you need.

Paul Wurth:

Oh, one more thing, sorry, about the local chapter. It’s very big in terms of the rank of all the chapters in the US, right?

Ken Mar:

Yeah, out of the 1,300 affiliates around the world we’re ranked in the top five.

Paul Wurth:

Wow.

Ken Mar:

And of course the big ones that we kind of model ourselves, that we do peer to peer type studies and things like that happen to be in the Twin Cities, in Minneapolis and in the Dallas area.

Paul Wurth:

And am I correct that Habitat’s based out of Atlanta?

Ken Mar:

Habitat is based out of Atlanta. That’s where the headquarters is. Originally it was founded and based in America’s Georgia, which is down by White Plains where Jimmy Carter lived. Yep.

Tom Houghton:

Came full circle there. Nice job.

Paul Wurth:

Exactly.

Tom Houghton:

If you don’t know who Jimmy Carter is, check the show notes page.

Paul Wurth:

Yes. How’d you find yourself, because you have a cool story. I won’t tell it for you, but you left corporate America and you joined Habitat, right?

Ken Mar:

Yeah. I was at Gallup for about 15 years as corporate treasurer. I would fly around the world and around the US buying and selling companies and doing accounting stuff and doing treasury stuff. Amanda actually worked at Gallup for a couple of years.

Paul Wurth:

Amanda Z…

Ken Mar:

Amanda Brewer, our current CEO executive director. And she worked at Habitat after a long stint with Habitat International in Atlanta and Americas. So she moved back ’03, ’04 I believe. And she worked at Gallup and that’s where I met her. And then she was there for, I think maybe 18 months, and then the local affiliate here in Omaha called her and asked her to be the executive director. So then we’d stay in touch and talk and run into each other, run into friends that both knew us. And then about ’09 and 10, she called and we started talking and yeah, I came over. It was great. But it got me out of an airplane, got me thinking a lot more about the whole general idea of making the world a little bit better than when you got here.

Paul Wurth:

That’s awesome.

Tom Houghton:

Yeah.

Paul Wurth:

He made being a treasurer for a company sound like the most exciting thing ever.

Tom Houghton:

Right. Getting on a jet. Just jetting around.

Ken Mar:

I was just jumping on a jet every day, buying and selling companies on a whim.

Tom Houghton:

Yeah. That sounds like Dave [inaudible].

Ken Mar:

I wish it was that cool. But yeah, it was fun because it was just going out and trying to figure out a way to buy more of your market. And that’s what I did a lot.

Paul Wurth:

For you though, a lot of it was just personally you wanted to give back and kind of make that part of your life, right? Was that part of it?

Ken Mar:

Yeah, after a while. And it’s not right or wrong, it’s just what you feel personally. But it’s trying to make that number every month, whether it’s a sales number or whether it’s a profitability number or what your stock price is going to be. Which is all fine. But yeah, I just started listening to what Amanda had to say and where Habitat was going. And the numbers, there’s not quite as many numbers as far as zeros. But as far as the job itself, it’s the same exact type of stuff that we ran into in the for-profit world. You always have, especially my role as chief operating officer, you have building facility issues, you have issues with, of course, people. And that’s not good or bad, I mean, you’ll have stuff with vehicles, and then just your business in general as far as how you grow it, how you build it and where it’s going to go.

Paul Wurth:

And would you attribute your success or the growth from when you started, from about 15 to over a hundred; is that because you and Amanda and maybe some other leaders there put some of your business acumen from a previous life into it?

Ken Mar:

Yeah, it was definitely a choice by our board that said the community is asking for more of us. So that’s when we decided, “Let’s really step on the gas pedal.” So let’s say in 2012, over a few years, my two goals were when I first started was one, to find a new office building for us to house not only our warehouse, but also our offices, and also to find the second ReStore. And we hit those objectives. And then from there, now we have a place that we can put people, and we can start thinking about how we’re going to grow. Not as fast as we had thought, but when you get from 15 homes to 20 homes, and then all of a sudden you’re looking at, “Geez, how do we get scalable?”

Ken Mar:

Because like any business, you kind of plateau. And then you’re looking for that next little shot in the arm. And it happened to be Buildertrend. Because at the time we’re looking to go from like 20, 25 homes to another 20 homes or so increasing it from that to get to about 40. And we needed a piece of software that we could use that would help us get scalable quickly, help us with communication, help us with repository information as well, keeping it for as long as we need it to. And a basic understanding that when you work, you’re accountable for your work. And that’s what the Buildertrend product has brought us. Yeah, it’s changed our business.

Paul Wurth:

When did we cross paths? Did you come to us?

Ken Mar:

I called you because in our construction committee, one of our bankers said, “Have you talked to Buildertrend?”

Paul Wurth:

Okay.

Ken Mar:

I said, “No, I haven’t.” And that’s when I called you and you and I hooked up and away we go.

Paul Wurth:

Yeah, it was fun. So like five years ago, was it?

Ken Mar:

Yeah, I would say probably ’14, probably late ’14 or so. But yeah, I think we really got it going in ’15, but it took us a while because when you’re that small, not only are you still trying to do your business and now you’re trying to implement a piece of software, that’s completely out of bounds because people are thinking, “This is going to be on our phone and we’re going to do what?” So it was small steps. It was taking pictures at first. And then we figured out, “Oh, this is what we can start using it for.” And now it’s embedded, it’s part of our fabric at Habitat.

Paul Wurth:

That’s great. It’s a similar story to a lot of people.

Tom Houghton:

Yeah. So you talked about your growth. For 2019, what’s your projected amount of houses that you’re gonna be…

Ken Mar:

We’re shooting for 56 homes this year.

Tom Houghton:

That’s great.

Ken Mar:

And then about 150 home repair projects that we’ll work on.

Paul Wurth:

That would be another thing you do. So the ReStore, the new home ground up, but then you do a whole program of remodels. But also you mentioned something about landscaping as well?

Ken Mar:

We do. So let’s hit a few of those. So we own about 450 pieces of property all over North Omaha. And it’s basically our future inventory, that’s where we’re going to build in the next 10 years or so. So when you own a piece of land, you have to manage it. So our facilities management team manages about 450 pieces of land. We have to go out and mow, snow removal, as well as taking off debris. Sofas and stuff like that. And then when you think about how all that kind of mixes in, it just adds onto another layer of our warehouse. So we have a construction piece, we’ve just added our own in-house electrician and our own house plumber as well. And next year, we’re going to move into having our own in-house HVAC air conditioning guy. But with that, kind of helps us with quality and it helps us with timeliness.

Paul Wurth:

So they would train people, right?

Ken Mar:

They would, but more often than not they’re on the job sites, they’re just practicing their skill.

Paul Wurth:

Because for those who don’t know, one of the parts about Habitat is your volunteer program. So when you’re building a home or doing renovations, you’re asking for volunteers in the community. Our team has been out there a handful of times, we’re going to do a bunch more over the next year. It’s great for our people, because most people here have never swung a hammer.

Ken Mar:

That’s 99% of our volunteers. They don’t have construction experience. So whether they’re attorneys or whether they’re students from Creighton, they don’t have any construction skill, but they come out because they want to serve. And they come out and serve and we have over 10,000 volunteers a year and they come out and they help us build the 56 homes we’re putting up this year.

Paul Wurth:

And you have Habitat employees that are guiding them, right? So you’ll say, “Hey, this is how you put up a soffit.”

Ken Mar:

Right. We have construction supervisors that are on site and they’ll lead the 10 to 15 volunteers a day.

Paul Wurth:

And they’re great. And they have to have that skill set that most don’t, for-profit, which is you have to be able to be really good with people, be a really good communicator, be patient.

Ken Mar:

Yeah. There’s a lot of the human side that our construction team has to have. When I first started, we kind of had to change our hiring model as well. So it went from rural construction, check the list, meeting deadlines, to a person that wasn’t afraid to look at a volunteer eye to eye and be okay with having the project fall behind a little bit, because our main driver was that the volunteer was going to have a great day. Because these volunteers, just like all of us, if we’re taking a day off from work, we want to go have a good time. We don’t want to have a time where someone’s yelling at us, right? So that was the main driver was just to make sure that the volunteers were engaged and they would have a great time, and try to do something on the job site. And if it didn’t, it didn’t happen, then you know what, we’ll worry about the next day. But all in all, over just the law of averages tell you, our build times are about 16 weeks. That’s the timeline that we build around our Gantt charts within our Buildertrend.

Paul Wurth:

Yeah. You guys have a great team.

Ken Mar:

Yeah.

Paul Wurth:

Our team, like I said, has been out there; have nothing but good things to say. It’s team building. So you probably get a lot of corporations that do this.

Ken Mar:

We do.

Paul Wurth:

And then, yeah, your people are really great about communicating.

Ken Mar:

Yeah. One thing that we didn’t talk about was our home repair. So we’ll do about 150 home repair this year, including the home repairs; so there’s about 60 projects where we’ll go out and we’ll do kind of the exterior pieces where it’s new siding or a new roof or a new patio or something like that where someone really needs that. And that’s what the home repair…

Paul Wurth:

Well, is there an aspect of that that; I think we talked about this, where you actually are going to give a facelift to the neighborhood community.

Ken Mar:

Right, so that’s what we call our neighborhood revitalization. And that team goes out and it’s four or five times a year and it’s basically 100, 125 volunteers show up and they’ll hit a two block area and it’s just neighbors helping neighbors. And it’s really community driven. And it’s really nothing heavy construction wise, but it’s fixing gutters, it’s fixing screens, but it’s beautifying the neighborhood. So it’s maybe it’s pulling weeds, maybe it’s mowing, but it’s that general light touch that helps you meet the neighbors. Because if you’re like me, I may know my neighbor that I’ve lived across the street from for 25 years, I may have said five words to him past 25 years. So a lot of that is just building that community that we’re all looking for.

Paul Wurth:

It also creates pride in your neighborhood, right? Once you clean something up, you kind of want to keep it that way.

Ken Mar:

Keep it nice. Yeah.

Paul Wurth:

That’s a really cool program.

Ken Mar:

Yeah, there’s all kinds of stuff. There’s all kinds of stuff that neighborhood revitalization does.

Tom Houghton:

So we’ve talked about a few different ways people could get involved, I guess next steps for somebody listening to that says, “You know what? I’d love to help out.” What would be their best next step?

Ken Mar:

Habitatomaha.org.

Tom Houghton:

Okay.

Ken Mar:

Yeah. If you want to give, you want to donate, you want to donate to ReStore, you want to volunteer; hit habitatomaha.org.

Paul Wurth:

Is there a national website and then you could go find your local chapter?

Ken Mar:

I believe if you go to habitat.org, you’ll be able to get through it.

Paul Wurth:

It’s crazy you guys do so many different things. Like you said, some people have a pretty general assumption of Habitat, like what they do. But as we’ve seen, we’ve already had like four different programs. One I love is the builder’s blitz. Right? Because a couple of years, I went out there to see you; just to talk to you, I wasn’t volunteering. But it was amazing. I mean, can you explain what that is?

Ken Mar:

Well, that’s a culmination of a whole year’s work. So it’s planned. It’s a 10 home build. This year there happens to be eight and we’re looking for two more builders. But they’re commercial builders that come out; I guess residential builders as well, but they’re commercial builders that come out. And they literally build a home in a week. So we’ll have the foundations are poured, but they’ll come out and they’ll start decking, and walls go up, siding goes up, a roof goes up, and all the inside goes, the interior happens and it goes up in a week. And with that, it helps us because those 10 homes would take us again on an average 16 weeks. Well here, it just helps us serve that many more families. And adds up to our 56 home goal.

Paul Wurth:

At least the one I was at, the other thing is that you completely transform a block. You basically wipe out a block, starting fresh. The one I was at was across the street from an elementary school. So I could just tell how powerful it was going to be for the whole neighborhood.

Ken Mar:

Yeah. A lot of the homes, a lot of the areas that we’re in, especially where a blitz located at, the empty lots outnumber the homes. And then the homes have been dilapidated or they’ve been burned or just been vacant, and through many years of nobody living in it, just needs to be torn down. If the foundation of the home are livable, we will go in and do a full gut rehab and try to maintain the envelope of the neighborhood. But in a blitz situation, more often than not, it’s eight or nine homes that are going up and maybe one or two that will be full, complete rehabs, gut rehabs.

Ken Mar:

But within that range, Paul, you got it right as far as it transforms the neighborhood, the 10 homes that we’re building there. But it goes a lot farther than that, because we serve breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and it brings in all the neighbors from surrounding blocks as well as surrounding neighborhoods as well. But what it goes to is it kind of goes back to the neighborhood revitalization where you’re transforming not only the neighborhood, but the community. So there’s a bigger community involvement and a bigger sense that you’re part of something bigger.

Paul Wurth:

So you need volunteers to donate supplies, donate the food, donate the time as far as coming out there and helping those builders. Because they’re not doing themselves, like just their employees. You need a bunch of volunteers to help them.

Ken Mar:

Right, so the builders, the majority of them are commercial builders. So sometimes they have to figure out residential building code as well. So they’re used to building like the building we’re in, and they’re not used to building a single-family home, three bedroom, with wood more often than it’s a steel structure. So as they go through that, they also bring in subs and their subs, whether it be HVC, framing crews, roofing crews, they have to come in and all those crews are kind of filtered into that or compressed into that one week span. So at any one day, there’s probably 300 volunteers on site building. And we feed every one of them, three squares a day. I think you came on a Tuesday, and Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday are mass chaos because that’s when the most construction’s happening. And then about Wednesday night, Thursday night, Friday is all the interior drywall and stuff like that. So it’s a little less hectic, but it’s still wild.

Paul Wurth:

It was chaos, but there was a great energy.

Ken Mar:

Oh yeah.

Paul Wurth:

And everybody was in that servant spirit, which you could tell, which was really cool.

Ken Mar:

Yeah. And that’s what we’re always about is trying to find that spot in someone’s heart to where, “Hey, I’m serving and making the world a little bit better.”

Tom Houghton:

That’s awesome.

Paul Wurth:

You’re always like that, Tom.

Tom Houghton:

Well thanks, Paul.

Paul Wurth:

Don’t even need to open that door. It’s always open.

Tom Houghton:

Thanks.

Paul Wurth:

Was that a weird reference?

Ken Mar:

That’s a rally killer.

Tom Houghton:

Yeah, thanks.

Paul Wurth:

That’s a rally killer?

Tom Houghton:

So Ken, I notice I went out actually last fall to meet up with one of the teams and as a complete outsider to this, I was thinking like; again, you’re walking into a situation where it’s like, “I’m here to help, but I don’t really know anything.” And again, I thought the volunteer coordinator did a great job explaining stuff. Well, one of the things I learned was about this sweat equity that is required of the future home buyer. It was a neat thing to hear for them that they’re actually participating in the build process, because I think they learn things along the way, that’s the other part of the goal. Right?

Ken Mar:

Right. So there’s a program, when you get approved into the program, families are required to, if it’s a married couple, they’re required to put 350 sweat equity hours in, that’s building your own home, that’s going to classes, and that’s helping at other job sites as well. But you might be building your own home, helping build someone else’s home, but also understanding the idea of what it takes to be a homeowner. That’s what the sweat equity is all about. And then if it’s a single wage earner in the family, we require about 250 sweat equity hours.

Tom Houghton:

I just thought that was neat to empower those people to, again, it’s kind of that self-pride of like, “Look, I actually helped do this.” And then also the learning process.

Ken Mar:

Yeah. And that basically replaces the down payment that you have to make when you normally buy a home.

Tom Houghton:

Neat.

Paul Wurth:

Well, I don’t know if it was just me, but I think some people assume that those families are getting those houses for free.

Ken Mar:

No, they’re purchasing it. They’re signing a 30 year mortgage and they’re making house payments just like everyone is that owns a home.

Paul Wurth:

That’s really cool.

Tom Houghton:

Well Ken, thank you so much for coming on the program today. We had a great time getting to learn more about Habitat, how much you guys are impacting the world. It’s such an exciting mission that you have there. So thanks for being a part of our story. Thanks for coming on and sharing that.

Paul Wurth:

So the listeners can support a couple different ways, right? So again, we’re going to go as a family trip, me and you and our families, to the ReStore this weekend.

Tom Houghton:

Yeah, sure.

Paul Wurth:

So go to the ReStore, donate to the ReStore. Because you’ll have one probably locally, wherever you’re at in the world. You can donate money, you guys are always looking for monetary gifts, right? And then also volunteer onsite, swing a hammer.

Tom Houghton:

Yeah. And don’t forget to check the show notes, to see pictures of Tom and Paul at the ReStore.

Paul Wurth:

Oh no.

Ken Mar:

And more importantly, if you know of anybody that needs home repair, we service all of Douglas and Sarpy County as well.

Paul Wurth:

Right. Well yeah, that’s the other thing. How do you apply if you need home repair or if you have somebody you know? Just go to the website?

Ken Mar:

Yeah, just go to the website, it’ll completely go through the whole flow of how you apply.

Paul Wurth:

Perfect.

Ken Mar:

So yeah. Or you can always give us a call as well.

Tom Houghton:

And that’s again, that website is habitatomaha.org.

Ken Mar:

Correct.

Tom Houghton:

Okay.

Ken Mar:

Or find your local one.

Tom Houghton:

Or find your local one. You can find out those links at our show notes page, buildertrend.com/podcast. We’ll have the links on there for you.

Paul Wurth:

Yeah. From Buildertrend to you guys, we think you guys do; we know you guys do a great job. Appreciate everything you guys do. Glad that we’re in a partnership.

Ken Mar:

Thanks for everything you guys do for us. And the community.

Tom Houghton:

Go team.

Paul Wurth:

Go team. You can find Ken at our bar about what, once a week?

Ken Mar:

Twice.

Tom Houghton:

Twice!

Ken Mar:

I swear I see you here like every week.

Tom Houghton:

He admits.

Ken Mar:

I see you too, Paul.

Tom Houghton:

Yeah, he’s a local.

Paul Wurth:

I guess the reason why I see you is because I’m there as well.

Tom Houghton:

Yeah, I bet. All right. Good.

Paul Wurth:

And with that, cheers.

Tom Houghton:

Yeah. Make sure you check out our show notes page. Also don’t forget to subscribe and rate our podcast. Thanks so much for listening and we’ll see you next time on “The Building Code.”

Paul Wurth:

Appreciate you.