The benefits of scale: 9 reasons builders should consider franchising

Charley Burtwistle (00:05):

What is up everybody? Welcome back to another episode of “The Building Code.” I’m your co-host/host Charley Burtwistle. This is the first episode I’m recording post Zach leaving. Very, very sad, but I told Courtney I wanted to stay on and continue to record, be a co-host here. I said, “I just don’t want to do it by myself.” And she said, “Don’t worry, Charley, I promise I’ll be your co-host with you. You won’t have to record by herself.” Well, sure enough, first recording today. And where’s Courtney? Allegedly got called for jury duty. Sounds like an excuse. She just didn’t want to record with me, but whatever.

(00:40):

We’ll make it work. You guys are stuck with me. That’s the bad news. The good news is we have a fantastic guest today, kind of a local legend around here at Buildertrend, Matt HollisCOO at Lexar Homes. We have been big, big, big fans of Lexar Homes for a long time. They’ve came out to Buildertrend University many times. We’ve actually just sent a couple of people from Buildertrend out to their annual conference a couple of months ago. So, everyone, when they heard I had Matt on the podcast today, the office was buzzing. So, while we don’t have Zach or Courtney, we do have Matt Hollis and it’s going to be a fantastic interview.

(01:17):

We’re going to be talking about franchising your business, some of the benefits that comes from being a franchisor versus a franchisee. Don’t hear it from me. Let’s hear it from Matt. Let’s get him on here. Welcome Matt to “The Building Code.” How’s it going today?

Matt Hollis (01:31):

Hi Charley. I’m good. How are you?

Charley Burtwistle (01:33):

Doing really well. Really appreciate you making the time for us today. I’m super excited to talk to you. We were talking in the booth beforehand. You’re kind of a local celebrity around Buildertrend’s office here, so the walls were popping today. Everyone was super excited that today we got our good friends over at Lexar in the booth, so you should feel proud.

Matt Hollis (01:52):

You guys are too nice. I think it’s something about Omaha. You breed some friendly people over there.

Charley Burtwistle (02:00):

That’s what we like to hear. Well, for our listeners that aren’t lucky enough to already know you, I’d love if you could just give a quick introduction of yourself and maybe tell us a bit more about your background and role at Lexar as well.

Matt Hollis (02:12):

Sure. My name is Matthew Hollis. I work at Lexar Homes, which is a franchise home builder based in the Northwest. I’ve been at this company for about nine years now. I really enjoy my job here because it seems to be always changing and presenting new challenges. There’s always some new project that needs to happen or some issue that needs attention or new locations and new employees that need some assistance. And so, life is never boring here at Lexar, so it’s pretty fun.

Charley Burtwistle (02:44):

Absolutely. So, I’d love a quick little background about Lexar itself. Is that you start with one location and slowly and surely kind of scaled up, or was it already established when you came in or what that kind of journey looked like?

Matt Hollis (02:59):

It was already established when I came in. The founders of Lexar are my uncle Bob Hollis and his business partner, James Moen. They were part of a previous franchise builder before Lexar/HiLine, and that was Adair Homes based in the Northwest. And they loved the concept of being able to take something that works and expanding it and helping other people succeed beyond just them. It’s a long, complicated history, but needless to say they’ve been in the building industry pretty much their entire lives. They work really well together and our franchise model’s kind of interesting because unlike some other builders or a lot of franchise companies, we don’t own all of our locations.

(03:48):

We embed ownership groups and then we just have agreements to provide business services and support for them. But each location is actually owned by its own legal business entity. All DVA, Lexar Homes. They love the concept of that because it actually creates a better environment that even when you go to Lexar Homes, I’m not dealing with some corporate entity over on the west coast or east coast. It’s local people that live here, their kids go to school with my kids, and I see them all the time. And so, hopefully it creates a little bit more closeness and camaraderie and community that you probably don’t see in franchise companies a lot.

Charley Burtwistle (04:29):

I love that. So, super excited as we kind of get into the weeds today, kind of topic of the interview, franchising your business, how to do it and when is the right time. I’d love to hear just at a high level, to kind kick things off of what factors other building companies should kind of consider when determining if franchising is the right move for their company.

Matt Hollis (04:53):

I think they should primarily consider how difficult it is.

Charley Burtwistle (04:57):

Fair. That’s a great way to start this off. Let’s get level set right away.

Matt Hollis (05:03):

I don’t want to understate it. So, franchise companies have both requirements on a state level and a federal level. Franchise laws differ state to state, and so, there will be additional complexities if you want to franchise a company outside of your primary state. So, it’ll be constant education. On a federal level, all franchise companies are governed by the Federal Trade Commission, the FTC, and they have a pretty extensive list of rules and regulations for franchise companies, and that’s updated every few years as well. So, you’d have to stay on top of that.

(05:41):

It’s quite a bit to wrap your head around, and it’s usually a lot of paperwork to fill out. I’ll give a shout-out. About a month ago, there was a podcast on Breakthrough Academy. I know you guys work sometimes with those guys. They had an interview with a franchise attorney up in Canada who specializes in franchise law. I would highly recommend listening to that. The attorney gets into all the legal requirements for establishing a franchise company and everything that he said is applicable to U.S. franchise law as well.

Charley Burtwistle (06:15):

We love our friends over at Breakthrough Academy for sure. Great friends of the podcast. I think we both traded guest spots a couple of times there, so I personally have not listened to that, but I’ll check that out right after this.

Matt Hollis (06:26):

That’s good.

Charley Burtwistle (06:28):

I know you were also mentioning kind of on the front end here before we started recording kind of the flip side of that as opposed to becoming the franchisor and owning this, there’s also a really, really good opportunity to become just a franchise location in an existing franchise base as well, too. I was wondering if you can speak to that a bit as well.

Matt Hollis (06:51):

I jotted down some of the primary reasons why I think at least in the building industry specifically, why someone would want to become a franchisor or a franchisee, kind of the list of what a franchisor should provide to a franchisee, all of the benefits. And then if I’m going to be a franchisee, and I’m going to give you royalties, I’m going to give you a percentage of all the revenue that I make as a business, why would I possibly want to do that? It seems counterintuitive at a top level, right?

(07:23):

I’m going to operate a business, and I’m going to make a whole bunch of money, and then I’m going to give you a healthy chunk, a percentage of everything that I make. It’s a concept that’s difficult to wrap your head around at first, but when you look at it at a close level, you start discovering why a lot of franchise companies in the U.S. actually succeed. I mean, it’s got some major benefits.

Charley Burtwistle (07:49):

I’d love, let’s get into it.

Matt Hollis (08:23):

For Lexar at least, and probably for most builders, being part of a franchise company should give you access to something proprietary. For us, it would be like copyrighted home plans. Since our business model works from a set of base plans, we got 75 to 80 right now, and those are copyrighted, so that only Lexar can use those. And so, there should be a degree of exclusivity and hopefully it’s a product that is attractive enough that they’re saying, “Hey, I can’t easily get this out on the open market or produce it myself.” And so, that is something that we provide to every single one of our franchises, and hopefully it kind of sets us apart from a market in some way.

Charley Burtwistle (09:09):

Absolutely. Obviously, not having to start from scratch is extremely beneficial there, but also having the consistency around people that have done it before and being able to speak the same language, I’m sure comes with a ton of benefits as well, too.

Matt Hollis (09:23):

And you’re looking to add value to those companies, those franchises that operate, right? I mean, what would they have to pay to go out and produce their own copyrighted home plans? I mean, if I wanted to go out and establish my Matt HollisBuilders and create my own library of 70 copyrighted home plans, what would that cost me? Versus if I become part of a franchise company, and I have access to that immediately. What sort of business value am I getting out of it?

Charley Burtwistle (09:52):

Absolutely. I love that.

Matt Hollis (09:55):

The next thing is hyper important. That would be marketing and web presence, which kind of flows into brand. Hopefully you’re becoming part of something that is specific in your market that is very established and that has a proven effective method of marketing and a strong web page. I don’t think this one could be understated because most builders don’t have a strong web presence. I mean, they’re not Buildertrend, they’re not Lexar Homes. They’re my father-in-law out of Portland, Oregon, right?

(10:36):

I mean, he’s a fantastic custom builder, but he doesn’t strong advertise online. I mean, he barely spends anything in marketing, and his web presence is minimal, and he probably likes it like that because he’s only building a couple homes a year, and he really doesn’t need that. But for a builder that wants to scale up and establish themselves, what sort of value are you getting for that? Again, like the last one, if I went out and I wanted to hire my own web developer to flesh out my own beautiful web page, what’s that going to cost me as a business versus when I become part of a franchise company, what do they give me upon being part of a franchise?

Charley Burtwistle (11:18):

That’s definitely a super interesting point. We’ve had a few guests on the podcast the past few weeks or months, whenever they’ve gotten released that I’ve talked about just the importance of web presence and marketing and things like that. So, talk to me a bit more about how that works with Lexar specifically, but I’m sure a lot of different franchises as well, too. Is the corporate office, or whatever the correct term is, handling all of that for all the individual franchisees?

Matt Hollis (11:45):

Correct. And so, each franchise location is going to have a sub-site under the main Lexar Homes website. That sub-site will introduce their ownership team, kind of define their established territory, what they build in. We’ll have specific home pricing toward their region. They’ll actually have on a marketing level their own separate Google Ads account set up, Facebook marketing. Our marketing department makes it very specific and targeted for each franchise location.

(12:19):

And so, again, it’s a service that you could probably find somewhere in the open market, there’s a lot of good marketing agencies out there. But you’re probably going to pay a dime for someone to manage and help you develop that as a builder. We want to make sure it’s something that it’s part of when you join a franchise company.

Charley Burtwistle (12:38):

Absolutely. Immense value there.

Matt Hollis (12:43):

The next thing is, at least for Lexar, another service that we want to provide as a differentiator, and that would be our online sales coordination team, our OSC. If you have a strong brand and a strong web presence and customers are coming in or calling or emailing you, the concept is do these just go directly to the office and the office has to filter through every single one of these and qualify them and determine whether these are subcontractors looking for work or clients looking to build, or lenders looking to finance builds or things like that.

(13:17):

And so, Lexar says, “Hey, how about we handle all of that for you through our own call service, and then we’ll qualify these things. The people that are actually looking to build homes in your territory, we’re going to use a CRM to flesh that out with notes and communication, things like that. And then give that to you in a very clean manner and actually ask and answer a lot of the questions that need to be at the start of the building journey process.” And so, our hope there is that we’re getting qualified leads that have financing available that either are close to owning land or own some land that they can build on.

(13:55):

And it’s a fantastic service that if I again, went out to a third party, and I wanted to find someone to run online sales coordination and talk to every single person that called me on the phone, that’s probably going to cost me a dime. But it’s something that I automatically get being part of a franchise company.

Charley Burtwistle (14:13):

That’s super interesting. So, how far along in the process … When does the handoff kind of take place there? Are these fully qualified, ready to go clients that, essentially, you’re just handing off and saying, “Okay, work for this client, close the deal now?” Or is it more so just pre-qualifying questions to give them an insight, get rid of some of the junk mail and things that clearly aren’t ready? What’s the threshold of where you hand those off?

Matt Hollis (14:40):

More the latter, just to qualify. At least for Lexar, the biggest questions are do you own land? Because our business model is we build on customer’s land that come to us with land, and are you qualified? I mean, can you afford to build a home right now? If you’re not qualified, here’s a few banks to talk to and see if you can qualify because it’s not cheap to build anymore these days. And so, once they meet those minimum requirements and pass over that threshold, our OSC team can book meetings directly with any of our sales staff in any location.

(15:15):

And so, people are just walking in the door saying, “No, I’ve already talked to Lexar. They’ve probably answered half my questions. Will you as a home consultant or sales people answer the rest of my questions and hopefully worked toward maybe a signed contract?”

Charley Burtwistle (15:29):

I love that. And I know you kind of started off being a franchisor, is really difficult, a lot of legal things, stuff like that. And then this kind of frame of mindset is the benefits of being a franchisee. But I think everything that you’re talking about is super, super interesting here. I’m not a home builder. I work in operations here at Buildertrend. This stuff is fascinating to me.

(15:50):

So, I’d say if our listeners are listening to this and think it’s really, really attractive to figure out some of this stuff and provide these services, that might be a really good fit for scaling your business across multiple locations as well, too. No, this is great. Your list of nine is three for three so far of super fascinating things for me.

Matt Hollis (16:10):

Man. Well, let’s hope it keeps on going.

Charley Burtwistle (16:17):

There we go.

Matt Hollis (16:17):

The next thing I think for especially builders is that we have our own internal drafting and engineering team, especially when it comes to preliminary in building, it’s highly important. 80% plus of our plans are modified from a base plan, and so they require a redrafting, a lot of CAD work. We have a pretty big in-house CAD team right here, and then the engineering that goes along with that meet jurisdictional requirements. And so, instead of putting that off to each individual office, we kind of unify it under one office right here to account for all of their drafting and engineering needs. I think it’s fantastic.

(16:57):

Any single one of our offices can call up anybody in our drafting department and have someone to talk to in that moment. Again, if you went out to the open market and you needed to find a drafting company to do all those things, we’ve tried that before. It’s usually, “Yeah, I’ll call you next week when I have some time.” It’s like, “Okay.”

Charley Burtwistle (17:20):

The accessibility there, let alone the service alone provides an immense value there.

Matt Hollis (17:30):

The next thing I wrote down is actually Buildertrend specific. It’s construction management software. And so, we provide financially the licensing for Buildertrend for all franchise locations under the franchise fees that are paid to us and work with Ben over at Buildertrend and some others to try to standardize that process and make sure that every single one of those are set up with a degree of consistency. And so, whether that’s having the same set of cost codes and accounting integration or naming standardizations or a lot of other things, your team helps out immensely to try to create a similar experience for every single Lexar location.

(18:14):

And so, hopefully, I don’t have a dozen different locations using Buildertrend in a dozen different ways. And so, I love the fact that we can utilize your powerful, mobile-friendly, user-friendly software to really take our business to the next level in a lot of those ways.

Charley Burtwistle (18:34):

And I know this is pretty Lexar specific, but you guys are also coming out to Omaha, I believe it’s the week after this episode drops, so this will be a nice little teaser, but actually coming out to a basically Lexar specific BTU in Omaha, correct?

Matt Hollis (18:50):

Correct. I’ve been out there quite a few times. Loved it every single time. Last year, our general manager came out to Omaha, and to be honest, he was pretty skeptical because he’s like, “I’ve never been to Nebraska and enjoyed it.” But he came into your guys’ facility,y and he said, “Man, this is impressive. This is fantastic. I think every person at Lexar needs to experience this. We got to bring most, if not all, the company out there next year.” And so, we’re doing that in a couple of months.

Charley Burtwistle (19:25):

Here we are. And zooming back out to the more broad industry, I think something that the franchisee, another benefit that you kind of indirectly said there is just having a knowledge base and a community to learn from. So, in the context of Buildertrend specifically, obviously you can work with your coach, you can work with Buildertrend reps, but you can also work with 40/50 other people that are using the same software to do the same exact thing. And having just that kind of in-house community of peers to learn from, I’d have to imagine provides a ton of benefit as well.

Matt Hollis (20:01):

It does.

Charley Burtwistle (20:03):

Love that. Back to the list. Sorry, less Charley, more Matt. That’s what we need here.

Matt Hollis (20:08):

No, I love it, man. I love it. The next thing that Lexar provides and will be needed across every business on some level is pricing and sales software. So, how do you properly manage all the pricing, the contract software? How do you generate contracts? What’s that customer experience look like? For a lot of builders, this is unfortunately put on the back burner. There aren’t many builders that want to spend a large amount of time with attorneys to make sure that their contracts are legally sound in every single way and account for every scenario.

(20:49):

And unfortunately, we live in a very litigious world today, and if things go sideways, you probably should have a strong legal contract. Being part of a franchise company, the franchisor should take a heavy priority in that and spend a lot of time investment and focus on that. And that only benefits every builder, every franchise that they work with because now you have a robust contract, which a team of people and attorneys have gone over and edited and modified. For most builders, that just sounds like, jeez, just hell. I don’t want to get into that. I hate contract stuff and I hate doing those things. Why not have someone do all that for you and you just benefit?

Charley Burtwistle (21:37):

I mean, it sounds like a blast to me, but I guess if some people don’t want to. To teach their own.

Matt Hollis (21:43):

I’m proud of you, Charley. And for Lexar, our pricing software and contract generation, that’s software we develop in-house, so we build a lot of that, leveraging the Microsoft environment that we’re part of. So, something proprietary for our company as well.

Charley Burtwistle (22:07):

Love that.

Matt Hollis (22:11):

Every single franchise company should benefit from standard operating procedures, SOPs. Here’s what you consistently do every single time. Home building is no different than McDonald’s building its hamburgers. You want a customer experience which is consistent and relatable across because that’s going to establish your brand. And so, Lexar is no different. I don’t think we ever want to be rigid and say, “This is the only way that we’ll ever do it.” And so, understanding when there’s a need to adjust and pivot, we’re in a changing market and technology changes a lot of things as well.

(22:51):

So, continue to test and to modernize and to figure out where greater efficiencies could happen, but it needs to be standardized across all locations for the benefit of the customers. And so, it’s a huge part of every franchise company, not just builders, and it can’t be understated.

Charley Burtwistle (23:09):

And especially just at least having a good foundation of this is what we’ve seen work well at other people in other locations. Obviously, to your point, we don’t want to be rigid and want to maintain flexibility, but at least have a foundation to build off of and then customize their own needs is 90% of the battle itself.

Matt Hollis (23:31):

And those SOPs and that structure that’s built, it’s honestly what appeals to a lot of investors that invest in franchise companies. Just doing some case studies on, I think I read an article on Shaquille O’Neal. He has ownership of over a hundred different franchise companies. And you think this basketball player with millions of dollars, why would you invest your money in franchise companies rather than stocks or anything else that he could do those things. And really the appeal of franchise companies is, I don’t have to figure it out myself.

(24:04):

I don’t need that entrepreneurial spirit where every single challenge that comes up, I’m going to figure out the solution for this. It’s pretty much just now I’m going to put money into it. There are other people that have worked really, really hard to figure this out, and I’m going to leverage their experience and their expertise, and I’m just going to find success. I’m just going to move forward. And so, that’s hopefully where the successful franchises differentiate themselves.

Charley Burtwistle (24:31):

Absolutely. I mean, if it’s good enough for Shaquille O’Neal, it’s good enough for me. Words I live by in every aspect of my life.

Matt Hollis (24:39):

Good life philosophy. I think another benefit of a franchise company is collective purchasing power. There is a lot of companies out there that try to hold builders together just to get better prices on lumber and drywall and other things. An established company should provide that for you, like Lexar tries to do right now. Whether that’s discounted materials, better warranty programs, better service, different things like that. You should be able to leverage the size and the influence that your company has because I’m no longer a small builder building seven, eight homes a year.

(25:24):

Now I’m a large builder with a lot of locations, building several hundred homes a year. That holds a little bit more clout with both manufacturers and distributors rather than just being a little guy. Now, the little guy’s part of something larger.

Charley Burtwistle (25:38):

So, each location that Lexar has is essentially working in the overarching GPO and has the purchasing power as Lexar as a whole.

Matt Hollis (25:48):

Correct.

Charley Burtwistle (25:48):

Wow. I mean, I feel like right there you’ve listed a lot of things already to kind of justify the kickback fee or whatever, but that alone from a pricing perspective has to make up a ton of the cost savings that customers or builders wouldn’t otherwise have.

Matt Hollis (26:06):

And we’re working really hard even right now to make that better, but especially the market that we’re in today, if you go to a lot of these manufacturers, and you say, “Hey, if I guarantee that I build 300 plus homes and your product goes into every single one of them, how can you sweeten the pot for me? Are you going to give me a better warranty? Are you going to give me better service? Are you going to give me a discount that then I can apply to marketing or whatever else?” And almost every single manufacturer in this nation says, “No, I’ll work with you. We’ll figure something out.”

Charley Burtwistle (26:43):

Love that. Absolutely.

Matt Hollis (26:48):

Another big benefit to franchise companies is training and collaboration. I know we talked about collaboration a little bit before, but training is sometimes a sticky subject when it comes to builders. How much time do they set aside every single month or quarter or year just to dedicate to training of their staff? Is that project managers? Is that sales? Even managers for management skills and different things like that, sometimes you get so busy in the day-to-day and building homes, that training kind of goes to the back burner, and it’s not prioritized. I think that’s unfortunate on a business level.

(27:28):

Training should always be an ongoing education, expanding our minds, should be something that we focus on. A franchise company, the franchisor should take the lead in that. You should be sponsoring events for education and training and all those different types of things. And Lexar really, really tries to do that, right? Thus, BTU in a couple of months, and we want to pull everyone out there. I want people to not only love you guys, which they will, but I want them to receive education and training and to get even better at their jobs.

Charley Burtwistle (28:02):

I’m super fired up for the Lexar takeover here in Omaha HQ. I’m sure it’s going to be a fantastic couple of days.

Matt Hollis (28:11):

All right. It will be. It will be. It’s going to be awesome. And then the last thing that I have written down here is that a franchise company should empower you to have what I call a divestment opportunity. This is almost unheard of in the building industry, but what’s your exit plan? Maybe you have a great home building company, and you have a fantastic reputation, and you’ve made good money for 20, 30 years, but you’re getting old and you don’t want to swing a hammer anymore. How do you get out of it? And at least from the builders that I’ve talked to, most of them, it’s, “I’m going to get myself a whole bunch of rentals and I’m going to try to find some passive income.”

(28:54):

Because it’s the lowest hanging fruit for them. For a franchise company like Lexar, it’s that how about you sell your defined territory to somebody else, and they can take over that business and find the same success that you’ve had. And within the last year, we’ve had a couple ownership transfers, sale of franchise locations, and each of those owners walked away with a couple million dollars in their pocket, right? Because they had valuable businesses, and they have a defined territory, and other people see the benefit in that and say, “No, I’d love to operate that territory and take part in that financial success. Hopefully help it further grow, so that in 20, 25 years I can sell off this franchise territory to else for perhaps even more money.”

(29:43):

And so, it’s a great exit strategy for business when you’re ready to move on with life and not do as much anymore.

Charley Burtwistle (29:54):

Matt, I really appreciate the time today. I love the way that we structured this because it was all, again, in the frame of this is the benefits of being a franchisee, but also everything you talked about is extremely applicable for companies that just want to scale and improve their standalone business, or maybe they just want to open up another location. Everything that you mentioned can be applicable there as well, too, is how can you find the synergies of multiple locations across the board from a marketing standpoint, from a plan standpoint, from an SOP standpoint, and then also, obviously, the benefit of potentially becoming a franchisee as well, too.

(30:32):

I think everything that you talked about was just so extremely applicable in so many different use cases. I got to give you a huge shout-out because we did not follow the questions on the podcast sheet at all here, but this was infinitely more valuable. So, really, really appreciate you laying that all out, Matt.

Matt Hollis (30:51):

Sorry I didn’t stay on script.

Charley Burtwistle (30:53):

No. The funny thing is, you kind of did, everything that you hit organically was something that we were wanting to ask you as it was. The frame of the way you laid it out I thought was really, really beneficial. So, super fired up to have the Lexar team out in Omaha. Really, really appreciated your time today. Any closing remarks from you?

Matt Hollis (31:16):

Maybe just a huge shout out of thanks for you guys. I’ve never been on a podcast before, so I apologize if this went poorly.

Charley Burtwistle (31:24):

No, this is fantastic. It was really good.

Matt Hollis (31:27):

But I love you guys. I love your team. I love the energy that you guys have. It’s great working with almost every single one of you. It almost blows my mind that you guys can have hundreds of employees, and it seems like I like every single one of them, and I want to work with every single one of them. And so, whatever you guys do to contribute toward your company culture and what you guys are building, I think not only do I love it, it’s worthy of imitation, and I hope to follow in your guys’ footsteps as we influence our culture around here. So, thanks for taking the lead in that. I’m proud of you guys, and I’m overjoyed that you’re a partner with us.

Charley Burtwistle (32:10):

I love that. Very, very kind words. Much appreciated, Matt, for sure. And I’ll see you here in a couple of months.

Matt Hollis (32:17):

Sounds good. I’m looking forward to it.

Charley Burtwistle (32:19):

Sounds good. Thanks, Matt. Well, we just heard from Matt HollisCOO at Lexar Homes. I must say that is not the direction that we had originally planned the podcast to go, but it was infinitely better. I love that he took the time to list out those nine key principles and benefits of being a franchisee. As I kind of said at the end of the episode there, I thought those were really, really beneficial for anybody in any business outside of just being a franchise or a franchisee. If you want to scale your business standalone, I thought they were beneficial if you want to open up another location and ensure common practices and synergies across the two. I thought those were beneficial.

(32:58):

And then, obviously, the franchise perspective is extremely beneficial as well, too. So, I love Matt. Everyone at Buildertrend here loves Matt, and hopefully our listeners out there love Matt, too, because there is a ton, a ton, a ton of really, really good content in there. So, thank you again, Matt, for coming on, and thank you for making my first solo interview so productive and educational. That will do it from me, Charley Burtwistleat “The Building Code.” Make sure to like, review, subscribe anywhere you listen to podcasts. And of course, you can join The Building Code Crew on Facebook if you want to meet other people that are fans of “The Building Code.” I will see you next time. Once again, I’m Charley Burtwistle.