How to retain top construction employees with Benji Carlson

Zach Wojtowicz:

Welcome to “The Building Code,” everybody. Zach Wojtowicz here.

Charley Burtwistle:

And I am Charley Burtwistle.

Zach Wojtowicz:

It is a post-Town Hall podcast here today. We’re feeling pretty excited though. It was a great town hall. Our CEO Dan Houghton talks to us regularly about core updates, but also he had a really inspiring messages about our customers yesterday, and I’m feeling particularly inspired. I mean, really.

Charley Burtwistle:

Absolutely.

Zach Wojtowicz:

It’s was something that I just wanted to run through a wall afterwards.

Charley Burtwistle:

Well, here’s the things I saw. It made a lot of people really, really fired up. Obviously, going into 2022, we’re going to be focusing a ton on our customers, a ton on our product, and really just trying to change the game. So, his message was that… But he did say a couple things in the beginning. He’s like, “We no longer care about metrics. We’re not worried about numbers. We care about the end result.” And me as a data scientist-

Zach Wojtowicz:

Actually, I saw your team squirming a little bit. It was pretty funny.

Charley Burtwistle:

I messaged my boss. I’m like, “Do I still have a job?”

Zach Wojtowicz:

We’re firing the entire data science team right now publicly in front of everyone.

Charley Burtwistle:

Yeah, that would have got a lot of cheers. Well, certainly. But then I could focus on the podcast.

Zach Wojtowicz:

We can keep you on the podcast.

Charley Burtwistle:

Yeah, full time.

Zach Wojtowicz:

That would have been great. Speaking of running through a wall, today we have Benji Carlson from the Breakthrough Academy.

Charley Burtwistle:

That was a good transition. I was wondering where you’re going with that.

Zach Wojtowicz:

I really feel like we’re getting the hang of this thing.

Charley Burtwistle:

Yeah. Benji Carlson, Breakthrough Academy. Fantastic business. He’s a fantastic guy. Obviously, Zach, and I’ve been doing a lot of research leading up to it. We’re super fired up to have him on. Do you want to give the listeners a little overview of what Benji and Breakthrough Academy is?

Zach Wojtowicz:

Yeah. So, I mean, there’s this growing market in the construction space that is there to help construction businesses get better at what they do. And so, the Breakthrough Academy is really focused on looking at the operational aspects of your business, and giving you that fresh set of eyes to make sure you’re making the best decisions. And they do a lot of other things as well from a business perspective. And they do a lot of cool community events for their members. So, they have over 500 members in North America. So, they are a growing consultant group based out of Vancouver. And I know Benji will talk a little bit more about what they do and the things that Breakthrough Academy has to offer. We’re really excited to have him on. We’ve had a few consultants come talk to us and I always feel like they’re really exciting episodes because they get the construction industry.

Charley Burtwistle:

Yeah. And you also were a consultant for a number of years here a Buildertrend. So, it’s-

Zach Wojtowicz:

No big deal.

Charley Burtwistle:

It’s interesting to hear you connect the dots with the stuff that you’ve seen traveling across the US and talking to all these different businesses and the stuff that they see with us, what they do every single day. So, with that said, let’s go ahead, and let’s get Benji in here.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Benji Carlson, welcome to “The Building Code.” Great to have you. How are you doing today?

Benji Carlson:

Thanks for having me guys. I’m doing very well.

Zach Wojtowicz:

So, Benji, we were going over your bio. Very, very interesting guy. Very, very interesting company. Maybe for our listeners, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, and then obviously the work you’re doing right now with Breakthrough Academy?

Benji Carlson:

Yeah, sure. My name is Benji. I live in Kelowna, BC. I’m Canadian. You can probably tell by the accent.

Zach Wojtowicz:

No.

Charley Burtwistle:

And if people are listening, instead of watching, he has a fantastic mustache, too, which I know isn’t just a Canadian thing.

Benji Carlson:

Needs to be said. Yeah.

Charley Burtwistle:

Someone had to say it.

Benji Carlson:

Thank you for the plug. Yeah. Although, this is a year-round commitment. This is not just a one-month thing.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Lifestyle, you are …

Benji Carlson:

Personal brand piece. Yeah, so I come from the painting world, originally. I made my way up through the College Pro Painters program as a lot of us at Breakthrough Academy did. For the last number of years though, I’ve been really full-time with Breakthrough Academy. And so, I’ll just maybe start with what we do, and then my role there. If we had a tagline, it would be this: We systemize contracting businesses for growth. So, we work with builders, roofers, landscapers, painters, drywallers, HVAC, plumbing, electrical. That’s our world, and what we help these entrepreneurs do is inject their business with the infrastructure that it needs to scale. We help them make more money.We help them work a lot less, and we do that through the implementation of really smart systems.

Benji Carlson:

My full-time gig here is… I’ve got a couple, I wear a couple hats. But on this assessment side, I basically assess businesses, make sure that they’re ready for the program. We do a really deep thorough diagnosis and just understand where are you at? Where are you going in the future? What are some of the big obstacles? What are some of the things that we need to fix and address and implement to get you there? And if it’s feeling like a fit like, hey, this is a member. This is an entrepreneur that we really want to work with, but we do make sense for them. We bring them into the program and then I would hand them off to a coach and we get to it. That’s what I do with Breakthrough Academy.

Benji Carlson:

I’ve done I think well over 1,000 of these assessments over the last five years, and it’s given me a very broad, a very aggregate perspective on… You just talk to a lot of people from a lot of different places running businesses of different sizes in different industries. Every business is unique, but there’s also a lot that’s the same. There’s a lot of patterns I’m sure you guys recognize as well. So, that’s my world.

Zach Wojtowicz:

That was my first thought as my background in consulting you start to see the big picture, and you can start to pull threads, and see the commonalities that a lot of businesses experience. So, I want to transition to when you are working with your customers, and you’re really getting to know them, and you’re seeing, and you’re thinking about what we should do, what are the challenges, though, that are unique to the construction industry that ultimately can lead to the cause of good workers to turning over?

Benji Carlson:

Yeah. So, unique challenges to the construction space that lead to turnover, there’s a couple things. I guess the first and most salient point I would make is that there is and there has been a talent shortage in this space for a very long time. COVID’s made it worse. We’ll talk about that in a minute, but it was there before. It was already tight before anyone had ever heard of COVID, or social distancing, or any of this stuff, it was already very difficult. And what that’s led to is really fierce competition over the talent that is there. And I think that’s bred a culture of people are always looking for a couple bucks more an hour. Businesses are used to poaching people from other businesses. That sort of transient, well, I did this for a year, and then I moved to here for a couple more years because they would pay me a bit more. That’s become very, very normalized. So, that’s one. You could say that that happens in other industries as well. But I think we all see that very, very clearly in trades and construction.

Benji Carlson:

The other facet of this space that makes turnover, especially difficult is seasonality. So, we might have some listeners in Florida and Texas who are just like, “What are you talking about?” But if you live anywhere let’s say north of the Carolinas, there’s a winter season. It gets cold. You may have snowfall, the ground may freeze and that does slow down operations. It can make for a clunky production schedule. There’s chunks in the year where stuff isn’t happening, and people will get laid off. They’ll go on EI. They’ll fly south and surf for the winter. I don’t know what they do. But that’s the thing, and lots of people just don’t come back to the job that they had before. So, that seasonality thing is something a lot of our members bump up against and battle with when it comes to holding on to their people.

Benji Carlson:

The other thing, and I’ll talk about this more later when we get into it, but I think a lot of construction companies struggle creating and articulating a clear career path for people. High performers don’t want a dead end job. And a lot of people, a lot of owners don’t, I think put themselves in the shoes of an applicant, of a candidate enough. And like I don’t know why this person wouldn’t want to work for me? It’s like, well, because you haven’t shown them what they could potentially grow into. I know they’re just starting as a laborer or a foreman, but you haven’t connected the dots between that. And one day being an operations manager one day being a part owner or something like that. So, that’s a huge piece.

Benji Carlson:

And then the last thing, it’s sort of, I don’t think you can talk about this without mentioning COVID, sadly, but I was doing a little reading on this before. Only 80% of the construction workforce has come back to their jobs since this. So that’s one in five of every construction worker just they’re not here anymore. So think about it, where have they gone? Well, a lot of them would have retired. The construction workforce is getting older. I think the average age is 42.9 right now, and that’s gone… I think seven years ago it was 40.5. So, that average age is moving up quite quickly, which means it’s an aging workforce. There’s going to be a lot of people that just said, “You know what: This is my cue to leave. It’s been a great run. I’m going to retire now.” So that’s one group.

Benji Carlson:

You’ve probably got another batch that have changed careers entirely. They said what, “I’m going to go work somewhere else. COVID has put some stuff into perspective. I’ve done some reflection. I want to make a change with my career.” That’s not a knock on construction by the way, guys. It’s just the reality of the shakeup that is COVID. And then there’s another group that hasn’t returned that is probably literally still sitting on their couch in pajamas playing Xbox, and if I’m honest, that’s not the employees that most businesses are missing.

Benji Carlson:

So, this COVID thing has created a really interesting, really ever changing, very dynamic situation, very challenging situation when it comes to turnover. And to make matters worse, it’s also increased demand. We’ve printed a bunch of money and nobody’s had anywhere to go. So all of that economic pressure goes to we want to renovate, we want to move and fix things up, we want a better landscape. We can’t go anywhere, let’s put those dollars we were going to spend on our trip to Cancun into a new kitchen or whatever. And it’s also screwed up supply chains. So, it’s increased demand, lower talent pool, screwed up supply chains, super, super pressurized situation. And that has caused a lot of people to rethink things and probably leave their employment in the pursuit of something different.

Charley Burtwistle:

Yeah, I mean, it’s definitely a snowballing effect listening to you list off all the different things that are causing these issues. So, I thought the career path point that you made about, hey, this is how you can progress and keep talented, motivated people in companies was really, really interesting. I never really thought of that before. What would you say are some of the other tactics that builders specifically can use when hiring or even with their current employees to keep those highly motivated self-starters there and ensure they don’t have the disruption of a talented person leaving?

Zach Wojtowicz:

We’re asking for free consultative advice here on the podcast.

Benji Carlson:

I’m happy to give it to you.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Charley is getting a notepad out right now …

Charley Burtwistle:

Absolutely.

Zach Wojtowicz:

… as a manager.

Charley Burtwistle:

Yeah, this is something… Well, actually, I mean, on a serious note, I did actually just move into a management role earlier this year. The data science team is pretty new here at Buildertrend. So there’s not a whole lot of given roles, and senior levels and progression. So that was one of the first things I did on my team was like, “Hey, this is what next steps look like. Here’s where five years looks like.” Earlier we were talking about businesses all to be in the same and having the same issues. We’re a tech company, and we’re taking free advice from the same things that use in the construction industry. So, it is cool.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Business itself is a universal principle, right? It’s agnostic of industry. You have to run the operation. So, a lot of the things you can pull on, it does apply to the construction industry. I think the customers of, or excuse me, the people of construction in a lot of cases, though, don’t come from business backgrounds, necessarily. And I think that’s where you really fit to help them see the fastest way to get there. It’s not that they don’t figure it out, or we’re having people who’ve gone and been successful, but you offer the shortcut, I guess, if you want to think of it that way, or insights.

Benji Carlson:

We totally do. We say this a lot. I say this a lot to our members, I’ll be like, “Look, you’re a very smart entrepreneur. You will eventually figure it out. It just might take you 10 years, and you’re going to make a lot of mistakes, and it’s going to be really expensive.” And it’s like, “We’ve done this a few 100 times. Do you want me to just show you, do this first, then do that first, then get Buildertrend, then hire this person.” It’s like, “We know that path. For you, it’s uncharted territory. But for us, it’s something we’ve done many, many, many times.”

Zach Wojtowicz:

This is what we do.

Benji Carlson:

And so, it is ultimately about compressing the timeframe that that takes. You had asked a question, Charley, about tactics to hold on to your talented people. So, this is about retention. And my perspective on retention is it’s fundamentally about engagement. You need to have people that feel bought in, they feel challenged, they feel like their skills are developing. They feel a certain way about what they do, and I think engagement is the word that business owners should be thinking about. Keeping people happy is a bit of an abstract concept. It’s a bit ethereal. It’s like what does that even mean? It’s work at the end of the day. So, I think the question is how do I keep my team hyper-engaged with what they do?

Benji Carlson:

So, there’s a few, there’s a couple things, and I mentioned that visible growth opportunities thing, that career path thing. For listeners that want to hear it, we just did a really good deep dive episode on this on our podcast. We’ll put a link in the description. But the to summarize it, people need to ascend. People need to see that I start here, but then I get up here in time. And that’s especially true in trades construction where a lot of these roles that we’re offering, that we’re looking for, let’s be real. They’re not as sexy as like, “Hey, I’m a graphic designer. Hey, I’m a remote digital marketer.” It’s like, “No, you are a landscape technician, right? Or you’re a skilled laborer or whatever.” Being able to show we can talk about how to make those roles sound sexier, which you can totally do as well, but-

Zach Wojtowicz:

I have noticed that landscape, the title you use for it is something… I don’t know. I haven’t heard a lot of-

Charley Burtwistle:

Landscape technician.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Yeah, landscape technician, the titling.

Benji Carlson:

These are the small little tricks you do. You don’t call it a landscaper. You call it a landscape technician. You don’t call yourself… At Subway they’re called sandwich artists. As gimmicky as that stuff sounds, this stuff works-

Zach Wojtowicz:

It’s psychology.

Benji Carlson:

You need to make… What’s that?

Zach Wojtowicz:

It’s psychology, right? It makes it-

Benji Carlson:

Make it sound cool. Make it sound cool and people will be more likely to be interested in it. But to this visible growth opportunities thing, I think the one thing that we’re seeing a lot of our members have a ton of success with is they’re thinking through how their organizational chart is designed. And they’re linking one step, one node on the system to a higher one, to a higher one, to a higher one. They’re getting very clear on what skills, what aptitudes the person needs to develop to move up, what results that business owner would need to see from the employee to move them up. So, it’s not just giving promotions willy-nilly. There is actual measurable stuff that you need to see.

Benji Carlson:

But then they’re giving them the training, the coaching, the support that they need to do that. And they’re talking about that on the website, they’re talking about it in their recruiting messages. It’s a big part of the brand and the messaging around the business. That has made… That’s created a much more attractive thing. That’s created a much more appealing offer to the workforce for a lot of our members, whether they be landscapers roofers, painters, whatever. That visible growth opportunities pieces is huge.

Charley Burtwistle:

Right. Because then it’s not just a job they want. It’s a company they want to work at. And then if you get that level of commitment that early on, and it’s like, “No, I’m working for the next job. I’m going to highly perform, and I know that I have the security there. That’s a game changer.”

Zach Wojtowicz:

Talk about building a culture, too. I mean, I think people come in the door then being like, “I’m not just here for a job. I’m here for my future. I’m here to grow. This business cares about me.” From day one, they’re already thinking about what can we turn our employees into? It’s an investment, and it takes a concerted effort. Man, I’m jacked right now.

Benji Carlson:

Totally.

Zach Wojtowicz:

That’s awesome.

Charley Burtwistle:

Well, I’m thinking about the fact that we have-

Zach Wojtowicz:

Go ahead, Charley.

Charley Burtwistle:

Yeah, sorry, I was just… You’re probably going to say something really insightful, and I’m getting ready to say that I’m going to lay out …

Zach Wojtowicz:

This is a common theme in a lot of building …

Charley Burtwistle:

What are our titles right now?

Zach Wojtowicz:

Actually, my first thought was like, “What can I do?”

Charley Burtwistle:

Can we be senior podcast host?

Zach Wojtowicz:

How do we spice up our titles, Benji? We need some consulting on the side. We’ll get-

Benji Carlson:

Podcast gurus.

Charley Burtwistle:

There we go. So, right now we’re podcast hosts and the next step up, podcast guru.

Benji Carlson:

One day you’ll get there, one day we’ll get there. So, that like creating the ascension plan is super, super important. The other one that’s just obvious, but it’s worth repeating is you need to pay your people. If you’re not in the… You don’t need to be the highest payer in your market. I don’t encourage people to get into some bidding war with other companies where it’s like, “Well, we’ll pay you $32 an hour.” And then they go, “We’ll do 33.” It’s like, that doesn’t matter. That’s a race to the bottom. I would just say you need to be in the top quadrant, and realize that compensation can look a few different ways. It’s perks and benefits. It’s flexibility. It’s time off. Some of our more like evolved, business owners are thinking through really interesting incentive-based pay programs where the employee has a much higher ceiling of what they could earn, but they actually have to do something to earn it.

Benji Carlson:

So, you can make that that compensation conversation fit your business however you want to, but you got to lose the attitude where it’s like, “Well, back when I was a laborer, back when I was a foreman, I only made 20 bucks. Now this punk kid wants 30.” It’s like, the talent market acts like any other market, and demand outstrips supply. It’s pushed price up. If they don’t get it with you, they’re going to get it somewhere else. So figure it out. Figure out a way to pay them that much or you will be really, really frustrated.

Benji Carlson:

Another thing that we touched on a second ago is this idea of creating a purpose-driven company. If you want to hold on to your people, what’s the mission that your business is on? I’ll use this landscaping example again. You could make the argument that we just like to mow lawns. It’s like, that’s part of what you do, but what you… This is actually, I’m using the example of one of our members in Denver. It’s his whole brand, his whole messaging is built on we make our customers lives easier by taking landscaping off the to-do list. And so, when he’s talking to someone that’s just in 30-degree heat pushing a weed whacker. It’s like, no, this is about something bigger.

Benji Carlson:

I can come up with another couple of examples. Like you don’t just like shingle roofs, you protect families and homes from the elements. Probably you guys at Buildertrend, you don’t just build software, you have some message around how do we make the life of the contractor easier? Same thing with Breakthrough Academy. I mean, our mission is to transform honest, hardworking contractors into thriving entrepreneurs. I could say that in a really boring way, “Hey, we help you implement world class bookkeeping systems and financial tracking. We develop your org chart. We improve your recruiting funnel,” but it’s sexier to build it into a bit of a purpose, a bit of a mission. As I say that some people might find that a bit like, “Oh, I don’t know, that seems a bit out there.” I can tell you, the results are clear enough that I’m like, “I’m a big advocate for it. Do it, it works.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Absolutely. I think it’s so powerful from just a motivation standpoint when you get out of bed in the morning that it’s not just another day. You build your whole company around a unifying force. And then the fun part is you spoke about putting the measurements and the results, and you put it back in front of them saying, “This is what you did. This is where we’re going.” And now everybody is winning, and it feels rewarding while you’re doing it. It’s essential. I mean, I think you brought up Buildertrend’s mantra, it’s the better way. That’s our mindset. We want to find a better way to run your construction business through technology.

Benji Carlson:

Totally, totally. So, I think business owners, we’re shooting this in November. We’re getting into that Christmas time of year, people are doing some reflection. If you’re listening to this, go for a long walk and think about what is the mission my business is on? Is it just doing kitchens and bathrooms or is it something more important? Is it something deeper?

Zach Wojtowicz:

Yeah, I think of that meme of the guy just staring out the window, have a reflection about how can you turn 2022 into something special for your employees?

Benji Carlson:

Totally,

Charley Burtwistle:

Yeah, I mean, what I’m curious. So, what percentage of the people you work with are like, they just started this company, they’re not sure really how to get up and going, and what percentage of your customers is they’ve been around for 20 years, and now they’re experiencing turnover problems or cashflow problems or not? They don’t have a mission-driven business. Is it split 50/50, or?

Benji Carlson:

The vast majority of our businesses are… They’re out of what we call the grassroots level. The grassroots level is your first, let’s say, one to two years of business. It’s just you, and a phone number, and a vehicle, and maybe a couple of helpers. But at the end of the day, that the business is pretty rudimentary. That’s a really important state. I don’t want to say that that’s a bad place to be. It’s a necessary part of everyone’s entrepreneurial journey. But it’s very difficult to coat some of the air yet for us to work on. So, most of our businesses would be, they will have been in business for more than two years, certainly less than 20, most of them.

Benji Carlson:

We do have some people that are the family-run businesses, so they’ve been around for a long time. But most of the companies we coach, they started the business five years ago, 10 years ago, but they’ve hit a very real ceiling where their operational systems won’t let them get any bigger. They could do more work. The work is there. The phone is ringing. They’re turning away business every year because they don’t have the team. They don’t have the systems. They don’t have the production capacity to get to it. And then they’re like, “Okay, let’s call Breakthrough Academy, and we’re like, ‘Do, do, do, do, do, do.’” And then they scale up, and we see it pretty clearly their revenue grows by about 21%. Their net-profit grows by 40%. We track all this stuff very, very meticulously. And so, that’s where most of our businesses sit when we find them.

Zach Wojtowicz:

What is the primary motivator that you’re finding your customers gravitate towards when they come talk to you guys? Is it revenue? Or is it the systems? Is it all the above? I mean, is there a catalyst for your customers who are re ready to go with a consultant to help us get where we want to go?

Benji Carlson:

They don’t want to hurt so much anymore. They’re like, “I don’t want to do it this way forever.” Yeah, they’d like to grow. They’d like a better team. When I ask them, “Hey, what do you want in the future?” I’m actually often quite surprised at how vague the vision is. The answer is not, “I want to do X amount of revenue in this many years. We’re going to turn this much net-profit. I need to hire these key roles.” That would be an A+ answer. Rarely do I get it when I ask that.

Benji Carlson:

It’s more often than not like, “Have a better team, but just I know that what I’m doing right now is like, this is not sustainable. I’ve got a young family or I’ve got hobbies. I’ve got the rest of my life that I really want to enjoy and this business I started it because I had a vision, and it’s like, we’re close but it’s veered off course and I need help getting it back to the reason I started it in the first place, which is more financial freedom, more flexibility, more fun, a sense of ownership, a feeling like I’m creating something.” So, that was long winded. But to answer your question, they come to us because it hurts a lot and they want it to not anymore.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Turns out it’s hard running a business.

Benji Carlson:

It’s super hard. It’s so hard and construction as well, guys, you would see this. It’s way more operationally complex than it gets credit for.

Zach Wojtowicz:

100%

Benji Carlson:

A lot of people think these are really simple businesses. They’re not. You’ve got job sites that are spread out geographically. You’ve got really picky customers spending a lot of money. You’ve got trade partners of varying levels of reliability. You got supply chains to manage. You got weather to deal with. This isn’t a simple company at all.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Construction accounting, contracts that have different terms and conditions that apply to the way that you run your books. I totally agree. And I think it’s I probably could imagine a lot of contractors having a bit of a chip on their shoulder. People don’t understand what it’s really, and I’m always like, I’ve really empathize with them because it’s like, yeah, the outside stereotype of a contractor is like, “He’s swinging a hammer.” And it’s totally just not…. I’m not pandering, it’s just impressive when you see people who do figure it out and are able to do it, but it’s like, “How did you how did you do it?”

Benji Carlson:

That chip on the shoulder thing is very, very real, Zach. A lot of business owners feel frustrated. They feel actually a little bit lonely. They’re like, “Nobody gets this.” I can’t talk about it with my employees or my boyfriend, they don’t get it at all. Does anyone understand the stress load, the pressure of like being in the position that I’m in? And that’s why I think like organizations like Breakthrough Academy are plugging in with Buildertrend. When they actually meet someone who gets it they’re like, “Oh, my God, there’s more of me?” It’s like, “Yeah, there are. There’s tons.” But that that chip on the shoulder thing is super real.

Charley Burtwistle:

And that’s something that you guys offer, right? I know you do you obviously consulting, but you also have big meet-ups and events and stuff for people to be, no, you’re not alone. There’s 400 or 500 other people here in town just like you.

Benji Carlson:

Yeah, our philosophy is that a huge amount of value can be gained by plugging into entrepreneurs that are on the same journey as you. And construction has historically had a pretty old school mindset when it comes to this. I don’t want to talk to my competitors. I don’t want to give away my trade secrets. I don’t want to do this. I can understand that mindset. You want to protect what has taken you a long time to learn. And yeah, you don’t want to share your books with somebody that you’re bidding against every other month. I get that. But what’s really cool is that within Breakthrough Academy, most of the businesses we coach are in non-competing markets. A lot of the coaching calls that we do are done in small groups where they actually get to share what’s working for them. They get to look at each other’s numbers. They get to talk tactics. They get to brainstorm. And then we do have these really epic in person events that we do a few times a year.

Benji Carlson:

COVID’s made it really tough, but I’m very excited to say we’re having our first one again this year. Actually, I guess it’s next year. It’ll be in January 2022. Have a couple hundred entrepreneurs in Phoenix. We’ve got a huge conference center booked though. We’re going to build our strategic plans. We’ve got some really, really good speakers coming in. We’re doing a couple skill development workshops, and just going to have some fun together. And that’s a huge part of the value add that our members enjoy.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Here comes Charley.

Charley Burtwistle:

Yeah, honestly-

Zach Wojtowicz:

Try and get the invite.

Charley Burtwistle:

We got to get the invite.

Zach Wojtowicz:

That’s a running joke in our… I don’t know if you listen to our podcast, but since Charley and I took over it’s always been about how do we expand the budget so that we can… No pressure, Benji.

Benji Carlson:

Guys, I think there might be a couple Buildertrend people coming already. I’ll look at the invite list and I’ll let you know who they are, and then you can go and… I don’t know what you need to do, but-

Zach Wojtowicz:

Don’t swap it out.

Charley Burtwistle:

Don’t worry about that part of the question. The first part is getting there, then we’ll figure out what we’re going to do. Yeah, I mean, we hate to sound too salesy on this podcast, but stuff like that. And then obviously Buildertrend hosts Buildertrend University that our clients can come to as well, too. There’s tons of really, really cool opportunities out there and obviously a huge benefit for attending things like that. Like you get to see Zach and I any office, obviously, is a big one.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Actually, that’s the main draw. People don’t talk about that enough. They’re here for you and I.

Charley Burtwistle:

We get recognized a lot.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Just kidding. One thing I wanted to get back to. We’ve talked a lot about tactics and the ways we can accelerate the business processes and retaining employees. I think it’d be really great and you talked about this about an example of construction company that has turned around their turnover problem from a retention standpoint. Do you have any… Obviously, you don’t need to name names, but what’s that metamorphosis look like?

Benji Carlson:

I do have an example. I knew this question was coming and I made a couple phone calls.

Zach Wojtowicz:

We have plant questions. What do you mean?

Benji Carlson:

I’ll give you a very explicit example. We had a guy named Wade Roberts. He runs a service plumbing business in Vancouver Island here in British Columbia and had a massive turnover problem. He couldn’t keep anyone for more than a year. His technicians were… It was just like a revolving door. They’d be there for a bit, they’d leave. He didn’t really get why he. Just he didn’t get why. He was aware that this was a massive, massive problem. He works with one of our best coaches named Ashley Ennis, and we are really big on this whole slow down to speed up philosophy. So, Wade did some reflection, right? He thinks about it. He’s standing in front of the mirror going like this, like the meme you’re talking about.

Benji Carlson:

He had a bit of an epiphany. He’s like, “I’m blaming these really flaky employees that come and go, but what’s the common denominator here?” Because this has happened a lot of times now. Not once or twice, dozens of times now. So, what’s the common denominator? What do all these employees haven’t got money? Okay, so what am I doing wrong here? What’s the issue? What do we need to address? And what he realized is that the people that he was hiring, people that that were coming on, they didn’t feel very supported. They didn’t feel super confident in their role. And this was pretty much at the root of the turnover. People didn’t know how to do their jobs super, super well. They didn’t… Like we were talking about before, they didn’t have that feeling of fulfillment, of growth, of support, of coaching, of development, all of that was missing. He paid them fine, but just that other stuff was not there.

Benji Carlson:

So what he did, and this is a big part of what Breakthrough Academy helps with and working with Coach Ashley was big, but they did two main things. Number one, they built a technician training manual. So it’s very, very, detailed SOP on how to actually do the role. It’s in writing, you can send it to a new hire before they ever step on site. It makes them feel more prepared. It’s something they can fall back on. They get to a part of the project that they’re lost, they go back to the manual, they check the answers there pretty quickly. So, that’s just sort of like an infrastructural piece that they built that helped a lot.

Benji Carlson:

But in tandem with that, the other thing that he did was he had this senior technician who was really, really skilled, very, very experienced who they actually made a dedicated trainer. So, all that this guy does is work with new hires on their first three-month window. Remember, employees are new, they’re like, “Hey, did I make the right decision?” They’re a little bit more nervous. They’re a little bit more gun shy. They need that extra support, and Wade’s a busy business owner. A lot of business owners in this situation, they literally don’t have time to train. I’m just like, “I’d love to spend this time with you. I need to go do a quote. I need to go meet with my bookkeeper. And then I need to do a million other things.”

Benji Carlson:

So, Wade, a lot of people didn’t have the time to give the support, he found someone within his business who could and made him a dedicated trainer. That person now just helps people feel more supported, gives them the coaching, takes them through that that training manual, and just sets them up for success. A lot of people don’t realize how important those first three months of a working relationship are. It has a huge… How well somebody’s first couple months sets them up for the next couple of years or not.

Zach Wojtowicz:

It’s like their first impression.

Benji Carlson:

So that was a really, really big thing for him. I talked to him earlier this week, and it’s like, “So, how’s it like now, Wade?” And he goes, “Honestly, Benji, my team is the happiest it’s ever been. I feel for the first time ever, I have people on my team who are going to be here for a very, very long time, and that feels awesome.” Cool, hey.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Super cool.

Charley Burtwistle:

I think, well, just an example like that to connects the dots. I mean, that’s a real… You changed those people’s lives. You changed the business, and then that business goes on to change other people’s lives, and having talented people there, and figuring that out just has a cascading effect of just positive, and it started with a simple change, right? It’s just, hey, spend the time where it needs to be spent time and the results will go on forever.

Benji Carlson:

A lot of us we’re so busy. We’re so rushed. Contracting is reactive in nature. That’s just how it is. And so, it makes spending that extra time at the beginning, which you know you need to do. I say this to people. It’s not like the listeners of this, this is new information. They know, it’s just, it’s a prioritization problem. They don’t have the hours in the day to do it. So, if you can… I thought that was really creative. You find someone else in the business who actually does have the time, get them to do it because that’s 99% of the problem for Wade, and it made a huge difference in his business.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Ready for this transition? Speaking of not enough time, technology, what role does it play in helping people save time? I mean, I imagine a lot of what you do is try and also transform the operation so that it isn’t so dependent on the traditional ways of doing construction. How does that play into employee turnover as well, or even preparing employees for this new age of construction that, whether they like it or not, is going to continue to keep on keeping on?

Benji Carlson:

Yeah. Technology is changing the landscape and very, very quickly right now. And I think that there’s a very clear divide between what I would call the old school contractor, and the new school contractor. And if you have… If you’re… I know most your listeners are probably on Buildertrend, or they’re thinking about getting it, so I’m not speaking to this. You guys are new school, but there is a group of people that are going to find it really, really hard to compete without a solid CRM, without project management tools, without dialed-in labor tracking and hours tracking. It’s just you need it, you need that at the core of your business because of how complex these things are. Scaling without that, if you’re doing everything on whiteboards and spend spreadsheets and notepads is extremely, extremely difficult.

Benji Carlson:

As it relates to turnover, I guess what I would say about construction is that while technology is making a huge impact on operational efficiency, it is still fundamentally, you are still trading well-organized time for money. It’s a bare bones business. And so, what that means is that this turnover question is even more expensive for a contracting business than it would be for tech like the space that you guys play on. If you lose your project manager, and you’re a renovations company, it’s a major, major pill to swallow. It takes a long time to recover. I think there’s this rule of thumb with human resources, they estimate when you lose an employee, It costs the business about the same amount as that employee’s annual salary.

Benji Carlson:

So, if you lose a PM that’s 70 grand a year, it’s also going to cost your business on top of losing them, it’s going to cost them both $70,000 in direct and indirect costs, and the case can be made it for more senior roles, for more specialized roles. That cost actually goes up. It’s the cost of new job ads, doing the interviews, screening people, making a decision, putting them through a training process, getting them on boarded, effectively. And that’s to say nothing of the productive capacity that you lost in losing them. It’s a big, big, big deal, and because contracting, construction trades, it’s so labor driven, that expense is even higher compared to other industries.

Charley Burtwistle:

Yeah, I mean, that’s the same thing that we face all the time regardless of industry. Everything you’ve said this entire podcast I feel like I’ve related to Buildertrend and our customers and their customers. The commonalities across the board is very, very clear.

Zach Wojtowicz:

It’s interesting, Benji, that you bring up our customers about the old school, the new school. I mean, we have customers who are new school, but I would say the majority of our people are trying to find their way into the new school atmosphere. And that can be a rough transition because of changing people’s behaviors takes time. It’s repetition, and that becomes habits, but how do you even get them to start trying it? And combating a lot of the pieces. And I think it goes, it ties all the way back to building a business, and making a priority, and embracing it, and rewarding people for doing it, and having a purpose behind it can really make that transition be that much easier for from our perspective. It’s always going to be a challenge to change any behavior technology or not, but this is one of those things that it’s going to continue to grow, but our customers, they come to us a lot for that advice, too. And what we talked about today, I think it was really pertinent to touch all parts of the business and technology is a piece of that. But there’s done fundamentals that everybody can improve on from a lot of different ways. Absolutely.

Benji Carlson:

I think, Zach, what you said there is so important. And I think the message I would want people to remember is the help is out there. How many people do you guys have working for Buildertrend where their full-time job is helping people learn, and adopt, and integrate the technology? Like a lot. That’s you’ve got a whole CS team I’m sure where that’s their entire role. Same with us. Same with the other strategic partners that we’ve teamed up with. There are a lot of resources. There’s a lot of educators. There’s a lot of information. There’s a lot of people that can help you bridge that gap. That can help you go from that grassroots level to the enterprise level, wherever you’re trying to get. To think that you are you’re supposed to know all this stuff without it is insane. So, for a lot of people it’s like, “Get out of your own way. Pick up the phone, call Buildertrend, ask them for some help. Give us a shout out. We’ll help you.” There’s so much out there. You don’t need to know all this stuff. And you don’t need to fight this fight completely solo.

Charley Burtwistle:

Yeah, a lot of great podcasts. Your podcast is the “Contractor Evolution” is the name of it?

Benji Carlson:

“Contractor Evolution.” Yeah, it’s on the Apple Podcast apps, on Spotify, and anywhere you’d want to listen.

Charley Burtwistle:

Yeah, we’ll make sure to have some links to obviously Breakthrough Academy, obviously the podcast. This is an awesome episode that hopefully our customers and our listeners and everyone out there, regardless of what space they in learned a lot. So, thank you a ton, Benji for coming on. I’d say this is one of the coolest episodes we’ve had in a while at least for Zach and I to be able to connect the dots with what you’re working on, what we are. So, I really, really appreciate your time.

Benji Carlson:

Guys, thanks a lot for having me. We’re big, big, big proponents of Buildertrend. We love the software. Our coaches prescribe it to our members all the time. It’s been a pleasure being here.

Charley Burtwistle:

Absolutely. Sweet. Well, thank you, Benji.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Whoa, Charley-

Charley Burtwistle:

What an episode.

Zach Wojtowicz:

What an episode. I mean, really.

Charley Burtwistle:

I’ll be interested to see what our director and edit team do with that because quite a bit longer than our typical episode, but does …

Zach Wojtowicz:

First off, does it make it all in. Second, what should we do with all the extra footage?

Charley Burtwistle:

Yeah, maybe we go a little two-part thing. Maybe we just release a long episode. But man talk about everything he says.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Hey, how about this, if they come to Buildertrend University we’ll let them listen to the B-roll, get them hooked in.

Charley Burtwistle:

There we go. I like that idea. A little value prop.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Yeah, we’ll just take them in the back and be like, “Hey, watch our B-roll of the…”

Charley Burtwistle:

Oh, I don’t think we have to be so creepy about it. We probably just have it up on the screen at BTU or something.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Hey, you’re the one who says, “I met in the studio.”

Charley Burtwistle:

Oh, yeah, yeah. That is news for our listeners out there. We are doing a live recording at Buildertrend University. And I think this episode will be released before that. So, if you’re hearing this, you want to come to BTU, you always wanted to, but you need to just a little something extra. You can come this time.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Well, we’re not going to take just anyone. You have to bring it to bring it up that you heard it on the podcast.

Charley Burtwistle:

Let them know.

Zach Wojtowicz:

That you could potentially be on an episode.

Charley Burtwistle:

Yeah.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Anyway, Benji was fantastic.

Charley Burtwistle:

He was great.

Zach Wojtowicz:

A lot of great tips and advice on how to run a construction business. It’s not easy as what we said, and there’s a lot of moving parts. I’d recommend anyone to take Benji’s advice and go look for the help. If you feel like you’re struggling to understand how to write roles, or how to do anything. There’s a whole community in the construction space. It all starts with everyone’s favorite Google machine to go find out what it is. But we recommend Breakthrough Academy, I think.

Charley Burtwistle:

Absolutely. I mean, I think that’s the biggest takeaway that I had was, and you guys said, there is a better way. And that’s what I was leading him to with the question about our typical customers, brand new businesses or people who have been around a long time. Just because you’ve been doing this for 20 years, and it’s worked doesn’t mean that it has to be as hard as it is. Just getting by, constantly having to hire new people, things like that. There is a better way, and there’s resources out there. So, take advantage of them.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Yeah, I’m a huge fan of the growth mindset. I mean, even at Buildertrend, we always talk about things that we do really well, and I can’t help it be like, “But what could we be doing better?” And there’s a fine line. You should reward yourself on the back, and you should embrace your successes. But the great companies are always evaluating the improvements that can be made, and you’re never really done. Speaking of purpose, it gives you that fire to just keep on going and try and get better every single day, every single week. And then eventually, you just get where you want to go and find out what’s next.

Charley Burtwistle:

Yeah, and change the world. I think that’s the really, really cool thing about the construction industry and Benji alluded to it, too, is you’re changing people’s lives. You’re putting a roof over their head. You’re taking time off their task list by providing them luxuries that they don’t have to do themselves. And that’s what I tell myself when I show up at Buildertrend every single day is we’re putting houses, homes for people across the US. That’s purpose-driven life. I think you said a really eloquently, makes going to work fun.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Remember to like-

Charley Burtwistle:

Review, subscribe.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Check us out where all podcasts are available. Thanks for joining us on “The Building Code.” I’m Zach Wojtowicz.

Charley Burtwistle:

I’m Charley Burtwistle. See you guys.