Trust, transparency and tomorrow: How builders and suppliers strengthen stability in an evolving market

Scott Hale (00:00:00):

Welcome to another episode of The Building Code. I’m your special guest host, Scott Hale. I’m joined today by Thom Black, Brian Humphreys, Jon Showalter. And we’re going to be talking about trust, transparency, and how builders strengthen those supplier ties in that evolving market. So, to kick things off, let’s start with a round of introductions. Thom, let’s start with you.

Thom Black (00:00:23):

Hi, good morning. Thanks for the invite today. My name’s Thom Black. I’ve been with CBUSA about five months, about 20 years in the lumber and building materials industry, mostly on the dealer side. Most of my career has been in sourcing, procurement, supply chain, with a small stint in sales operations as well. Worked with companies like BMC, Stock Building Supply, BFS, US LBM.

Scott Hale (00:00:49):

Excellent. Thom, thanks for that intro. Next, we have Brian Humphreys, the director of the Builder Channel Sales for Kohler.

Brian Humphreys (00:00:56):

Great to be on with you, Scott. Thanks for having me. Brian Humphreys, director of sales for Builder Channel for Kohler Company. I’ve been with Kohler now for about 22 years. My team and I manage our strategy for the single-family builder business for the US, everything from the custom builders to the large national builders. Throughout my career at Kohler, I’ve always been involved with builders, single family and multifamily. So yeah, have a long relationship with CBUSA and Buildertrend, and happy to be here.

Scott Hale (00:01:29):

That’s fantastic. Thank you, Brian. And then next up, we have Jon Showalter, the COO and VP of Homes by Dickerson.

Jon Showalter (00:01:36):

Yeah, not to be redundant, but thanks for the invitation and the opportunity to be part of this podcast. So, Homes by Dickerson’s been in business since 1975. I haven’t been with them quite that long but been with Homes by Dickerson since ’94. We build custom houses in the Raleigh-Durham area of North Carolina, the Pinehurst area of North Carolina, down the US-70 corridor from New Bern to Morehead City in North Carolina, and then also in the Charleston area of South Carolina. We’ve been part of the CBUSA program, we were an early adopter and started with them around 2005, 2006. And I think that answered all your questions.

Scott Hale (00:02:23):

Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate that. And I think that’s a great transition into kind of what we’re talking about today. So that’s a testament to what we see with CBUSA. What I’ve learned, since they joined the Buildertrend umbrella, is that we’re not just talking about a group purchasing program. If that’s all it was, Jon, I don’t think you would’ve stayed with them so long.

Jon Showalter (00:02:40):

No.

Scott Hale (00:02:41):

It’s not even just pricing and rebates. It’s really about that servant leadership, helping builders, suppliers, and trade partners work with each other and not just having things thrown at you. So, to expand on that today, now we’re really going to be talking about how trust and transparency creates stability in a market that can feel unpredictable at times. So, we’re really going to try to keep this practical, relationship first and experience based, not just like a high-level economic theory.

(00:03:06):

So, if it’s all right with all, let’s jump right into that conversation. So, let’s talk about pricing, availability and forecasting. Let’s be honest, none of that’s simple to manage or execute right now. So, I want to hear from each of you what the market feels like from your seat. And let’s start with Thom. Thom, what are CBUSA builders feeling right now when it comes to pricing, pressure, availability, and scheduling?

Thom Black (00:03:30):

Scott, I would say today’s environment’s a little bit different in it’s been a bit of a rollercoaster ride since the pandemic. Obviously, we warned there was a very strong feeling of coming allocation and industry tightness. So, if you rewind the clock even further, you go back to the downturn, the housing downturn of the 2009 time period. Manufacturers went through a lot during that time period, a lot of losses, to be quite honest. And a lot of those CFOs were still in those seats when the pandemic hit. So, when that occurred, we saw major constriction within the supply channel. And the builders starting in that time period really ran into availability issues, lead time issues, just general product availability. And this wasn’t just builders; this went upstream to the distributor partners as well.

Fast-forward over the last five years, the pandemic supply chain issues have really, for the most part, eased off, but they’re being replaced by new problems. We still have lead time issues. There’s still pricing volatility up and down. And a lot of that’s tied today with the economic uncertainty and macro conditions in the market, but also the tariff situation that we currently have. So, when you think about rewind the clock about 10 months now or so when the new administration came in and we started getting notification of massive tariffs, this created a lot of angst within the industry. And when I think about the idea, you mentioned servant leadership, I’m a big believer in that, that CBUSA is here to be an advocate for and help the builders have a louder voice and a bigger seat at the table with our manufacturing partners to help push back.

(00:05:11):

And not just push back for the sake of avoiding costs, but understanding: Are the tariffs warranted? Is the volatility warranted? Because it’s so easy to respond very quickly to the headline, but what’s important is the byline underneath the headline and the details that drive that. So, when I think about CBUSA’s presence and they’re working with the builders, what I’ve seen in the five months I’ve been here, the builders, again, with the uncertainty around tariffs and pricing volatility, we help to remove pressure from the channel. We do that by listening. We do that by aligning what we’re working on, specifically in the national contract team with what the builders are requiring.

(00:05:52):

Last week, or two weeks ago, I just had a phone call with Jon. He called me, ad hoc, about a partner that he needed some help with. And that’s what we’re here for is not just to have our agenda and to check down the list, but to again, help the builders have a louder voice and a seat at that table. I think when we effectively drive that, it allows our builder partners to be more strategic in their planning and less reactive in their planning. Because let’s face it, when a supply chain issue comes up or availability or pricing volatility comes up, it could very easily delay a builder’s cycle time, which innately will affect their ability to close their house on time. And it’s very easy to get reactive and very easy to get very frustrated by that. And I think with the added support of the CBUSA network, that helps keep the vision and the long-term goal on a much more strategic path than a reactive path.

Scott Hale (00:06:52):

Yeah. I mean, I think you could summarize a lot of that with the word you said; volatility. How do you manage to emphasize value while things are so volatile, and that access, and just not picking out the cheapest price or name recognition? It’s a lot of factors to balance that you must deal with there.

Thom Black (00:07:09):

Yeah, I think that’s really fair. I’ll use an early example with one of our manufacturing partners. When you enter into long-term strategic relationships, it creates a prioritization within their network. And when that occurs, even in times of allocation and volatility, that partnership is valued. And I think if you pulled the builders within the Raleigh market, even during the toughest times of allocation, our current engineered wood partner and our local partnerships with local suppliers as well helped the builders navigate that. And even though product became highly unavailable, they were able to stay on track for the most part. Again, that relationship unlocks prioritization, which ultimately, if you want to call it favored nation status, it ultimately gets you, again, I’ve said it a couple times, a bigger seat at the table, which helps you keep your jobs moving. Right?

Scott Hale (00:08:08):

Yeah. I mean, that’s a great point about you’re really emphasizing the partnership that goes on. It’s not just purchasing and keeping pricing down. So, Brian, from a supplier perspective, how’s Kohler adapting to regional demand shifts and forecasting challenges while maintaining that trust?

Brian Humphreys (00:08:25):

Yeah, I think that the biggest thing that we’ve been working on for the last five years is just becoming nimbler to market conditions. I feel like ever since COVID happened, and immediately following the demand and surge, we’ve really seen it being yanked from one side to the other. A lot of shifts in demand, a lot of nuances in what’s going on with tariffs and the like. So, probably the biggest thing that we did was investing in North American manufacturing. So, we have manufacturing all over the world, but there are a lot of variables when you’re bringing product in from other countries, whether it’s a tariff or whether it’s availability of containers. That was a big deal shortly after COVID when the supply crunch hit.

(00:09:15):

So, we knew we needed to manufacture the product closer to the market. So, we invested in three large greenfield manufacturing plants in North America, which has helped quite a bit. I would say the other one is we really knew that we had to do more collaboration. And to your question about how do you adjust to regional demands? So going back before 2020, it was very rare that I would ever have a direct conversation with our forecasting team, supply chain team, operation team, unless there was a big issue. That’s when we would get pulled in about how do we manage this through this big issue to try to not impact our best partners? I would say ever since then though, it’s been way more proactive. There’s a lot of forecasting that happens.

(00:10:10):

So, if at a high level at Kohler, they may see a product and a demand spike in that product, but they don’t really understand what’s driving it. But if you narrow that down, it could be coming from a specific market, from a specific distributor. And when you’re involving sales and sales leadership to better understand, what is the dynamic that’s driving that? Is that a one-time impact order? Is that a change in specification that’s going to go on long-term? It’s challenging, because we don’t sell directly to builders. We sell through distributors and they bring great value, like Ferguson, making sure that we have the right product in stock locally. But that’s no excuse not to try to drill down and better understand where the demand is coming from, how it’s going to impact our future pipeline.

(00:10:59):

I would also say, in addition, we’re not the only ones that struggle with that volatility. Our distributors struggle with it; the contractors and the builders struggle with it. So, I think everybody in the supply chain better understands the value of forecasting, of making sure everybody’s aware of what it is that they need, how much they’re going to need, and when they’re going to need it. Just a small example is distributors sharing POS and inventory. That’s a really big deal for us. POS is a great indicator of what’s coming down the pipe in future orders. They take a large inventory position, if they’re not blowing through it, that’s a future indicator. If they are, that’s a future indicator.

(00:11:45):

So, as we see that information, not only are we able to better prepare for future demand in the way of orders, but we’re also better able to connect our customers with where supply is. I would say Ferguson, who is a CBUSA partner, I would say they’re probably the most sophisticated at it. But I would also say that distribution, in general, is getting way more involved in the end consumers to try to better understand what that demand’s going to look like.

Scott Hale (00:12:12):

Yeah. I mean, again, you’re hitting on balance quite a bit here. You’re talking the global market, you’re talking local market, you’re talking speed, you’re talking adjustment forecasting. So, with all of that, how quickly does a company like Kohler move to make adjustments? ‘Cause I’ve been on enough job sites to know that everything feels like it’s instant and the demand is heavy. So, what does that look like in your world to make those adjustments?

Brian Humphreys (00:12:34):

Well, honestly, I don’t think anybody figures it out right away. I mean, there’s a lot that goes into that, but I think what we learned quickly is the key is collaboration. The key is getting the inputs as accurate as you possibly can. Nobody can predict exactly what the future is, so you need to have your processes be a little bit nimbler, your inputs be greater, your partnerships be stronger, your insights to what’s going on in the local market be stronger. That’s what’s going to make you agile. The faster you can get clean information, the quicker you can adjust to it.

(00:13:13):

If somebody had a crystal ball and said, “Hey, Kohler, here’s exactly what’s going to come in the next year.” Imagine if any of us had that. After all the volatility, I mean, it really wouldn’t surprise me if in this coming year demand for a home surged because interest rates came down, or if we needed to have a bumpy road … There’s not much that would surprise me right now. If we had a crystal ball that told us everything we would need, being nimble would be very easy, but nobody does. So really what it comes down is to partnerships, collaboration and communication.

Scott Hale (00:13:45):

Yep, you nailed it. That’s exactly where I was going. Thom hit on it, partnership, collaboration, servant leadership. But Jon, you’re the end user of this partnership and collaboration. So, what friction points do you feel most today with the pricing windows, lead times, and product availability?

Jon Showalter (00:14:04):

I think one of the things that is a challenge when you’re building a house is the fact that it takes a long time to build our widget. So right now, in 2025, we average 248 days-to-complete. So, we measure days-to-complete from the time you’re putting concrete in the hole for either a slab or a footing, all the way until you get a certificate of occupancy so somebody can move in. And so then you add to that, if it’s what we call a presale, like if a client is walking in the door and buying a house prior to us beginning construction, that planning can go, ideally, if all cylinders are hitting, we are aligning with our client on price, on timing, on all that, we can usually get that done on the front end, maybe five weeks.

(00:15:00):

When things don’t align, whether it’s schedules, whether it’s not meeting their expectation on a price or plan design, depends on how customized the plan is, I mean, that can stretch into 24 weeks. And so somewhere in those 24 weeks to five-week period, we’re starting to nail down a price for a client. Which means our team is having to say, well, we’re having to get the plumber to make the quote on the house, which means they need to have Kohler re-spec’d in that house, they need to know what they’re paying for the faucets, so on and so forth. And then the volatility comes into play when we are in that surge period that Brian referenced that was right after COVID where things were changing so rapidly that in the period that it took us to build the house, you either saw pricing and/or lead time for product so radically change that you were kind of stuck.

(00:16:07):

And you had already quoted a price to a client, so you were contractually obligated to your client. Then there were other people that were trying to put in these escalator clauses. Man, that makes it for an awful client experience, to go back to a client and say, “I know we signed a contract, and in that contract, we have the ability to go up on price.” And now you got to go back and say, “Oh, now your house is going to cost X amount of dollars.” Now they may not qualify. That’s the worst-case scenario. But it also just puts a bitter taste in everyone’s mouth and that whole client experience, which for us is very, very important.

(00:16:44):

We are not the cheapest builder in our marketplace by far. We believe we deliver a better product; we believe we deliver a better client experience that raises the elevation of the price, but we must prove that to our client every single day during that build process and then in the warranty process afterwards. So, as we have aligned ourselves with CBUSA, and then the partners like Kohler and others inside the CBUSA family, we are able, in some cases, to get commitments on pricing for a period of time. We are also able then to understand in sometimes what price locks are. So, like, hey, they may be able to go up at this point in time, but they can only go up so much. And all of this helps to flatten the curve or create a trend line that you can manage to rather than having these spikes in whatever commodity or whatever line item you’re talking about.

(00:17:55):

And so, this engagement and then the ability to sometimes … And we’ve had these discussions where we go to order X component, and our distributor says, “Oh, well, the pricing from the manufacturer has gone up so much.” I mean, we have had conversations where we’ve been able to pick up the phone and say, “We’re already thin on this particular project for this project. We quoted this project six months ago, would you honor your six-month-ago price?” And I think with those folks who we’ve met and come face-to-face with, like Brian and I, I bet that conversation would go way different with Brian and I because we know each other. We have a relationship. And hopefully he likes me. But versus a situation where … And what I hope he knows is, is that if he looks down on his phone and sees that I’m calling, that it’s not a frivoling phone call. That it’s something worth his time to pick up.

(00:19:11):

And for us, these relationships are very important because I need him to trust that I’m not giving his phone number out to all my production staff so that then in turn, the production staff has some little hiccup somewhere and they go, “You know what? I’m going right up the food chain. I’m going all the way up to Brian’s level here to get this solved.” Well, that keeps Brian inefficient in what he’s doing. And so being able to interact and understand, protect this relationship, protect the contact that I have with Brian and others in the manufacturing world. And then, for myself, to only use that after I’ve followed some protocol. I mean, he’s got a local salesman that I can deal with. There’s Andrea who also works in the field of sales and managing that kind of relationship. So, there’s processes along the way that I think you develop and learn to respect, or the good partners learn to respect from the builder side.

(00:20:20):

And then I think what that enables the manufacturer partners to do is say, “Hey, he must be in a pinch right here on this one, so I’m more willing to help.” And if the answer is no, because of that relationship, I believe that in that situation, Kohler couldn’t help for whatever reason. And so that’s where I think the CBUSA family really starts to show value for builders is just … Well, and hopefully for manufacturing partners as well, is that ability to honestly communicate. And I feel like if I pick up the phone and I can visualize who I’m speaking with, like I’ve met that person before, we’ve maybe shared a cocktail one evening or we’ve told stories, I kind of understand who this person is outside of the building industry. Man, I feel like you can get a lot more done when you kind of understand each other.

Scott Hale (00:21:29):

Yeah. I mean, you make a great point there. You really put the bow on this present, if you will. We talk about trust, we talk about collaboration, partnership. And really, like you said, it’s family and it’s not just sort of this word that’s used. Like you said, we’re close to these people. So, we’ve talked about all those things in the frame of volatility, changing scopes and changing targets, but let’s talk about what happens when collaboration works the way it should and it’s not just a theory that we talk about. So, Thom, coming back to you, CBUSA often helps turn tough conversations into progress. Can you talk about how advisory councils, data, and looking under the hood with manufacturers make that possible?

Thom Black (00:22:07):

Yeah. Yeah. This is actually, I think, a pretty simple one. I like to think that collaboration works as an antidote to uncertainty. I’ll use an example from the pandemic from a previous life. We didn’t know what was coming at us. And at the time, I was on the dealer side, I was working for one of the larger lumber and building material companies. I remember doing a presentation to the CBUSA network at the time. This was probably very early in the pandemic, I want to say March of 2020. We didn’t know what was coming. All I knew is in the seat I was sitting in the time, you talk about uncertainty and how collaboration works, I received a phone call from one of our rail carriers in California, servicing California, saying that California was closed and we would have to find another avenue for where we were going to park all that lumber at the time.

(00:22:58):

When you get that level of uncertainty, that trickles all the way down the supply chain, all the way to the builder, like Jon talked about. So, in that time period, what we did from … You talked about analytics. So that’s one that is near and dear to my heart, to be quite honest with you. Analytics and transparency, they help overcome that uncertainty. And like I said, using it as the idea of an antidote. Brian talked about analytics in the partnership with Ferguson and being able to go back upstream. During that time period, we were sharing at my employer at the time, full transparency on our run rates on what was going out the door from a footage perspective. Not a revenue perspective, but a footage perspective, so our partners could see when … If you go back and you look at housing starts during that time period, we saw that big dip in April of 2020, and then a super V, check right back up, and it took us two years to come back off of that.

(00:23:55):

The only way we were able to get through that and have the level of fill rates that we did was through the transparency of literally reporting to our key supply partners on a weekly basis. This is the amount of units that have gone out the door. Again, this is, again, not in a revenue perspective. That helps them plan for, okay, well, maybe things aren’t slowing down. Maybe the CFO who said the world might end here with the pandemic, maybe it’s not going to. And through that level of analytics sharing and transparency, when you’re able to do that, you’re able to share that experience down to the builder as well, helping to keep their job sites going.

(00:24:36):

When you play your cards close to the vest, I think if we all learned one thing from the pandemic, if not anything else, Jon referenced this in the conversations and being able to pick up the phone and call Brian, playing the cards close to the vest and just worrying about yourself on a day in, day out basis, that doesn’t create a stage for long-term partnerships and it doesn’t create a recipe for success for all the partners within the supply chain. So again, I think about collaboration as that antidote for uncertainty, right?

Scott Hale (00:25:05):

Yeah, absolutely. Staying transparent.

Jon Showalter (00:25:07):

If I could jump in right there. Sorry, Scott. I think that there is, the word that we sometimes throw around here, is sometimes you need to be vulnerable. And I think that’s what you were describing here a little bit, Thom, is sometimes you have to be really honest about where you’re coming from and share some of the things that maybe you don’t really want to share. But if you can be vulnerable a little bit, I think that … And you have to have that trust. You can’t be vulnerable if you haven’t built that foundation of trust. But when you can be vulnerable, and then you can really understand and be comfortable asking and receiving the answer and the communication back and forth. And I think that that’s kind of, in a nutshell, that’s kind of what you were describing there, Thom, is the ability to be vulnerable with each other. And then trust that that vulnerability, the information that you share, isn’t going to be used against you.

Thom Black (00:26:09):

Yeah, Jon, I think that is spot on. And that brings me right back, I almost had goosebumps there, remembering those phone calls I was having with the manufacturing partners at the time. Just, again, being fully transparent. And when you’re in sourcing and negotiation all the time, which is what a purchasing group does, it’s very, very easy just to try to belly up to the table and play hardball. But there’s a time to be a hammer and there’s a time not to. And that vulnerability, Jon, I love that term. You must be willing to share that information, and when you are and be just truly transparent, it ends up paying fruits for everyone in the supply chain. Again, I remember because of those conversations we were having and that data sharing, making phone calls to suppliers and them saying, “Yeah, you know what, Thom, we’re going to prioritize those shipments. We’re going to get those out for you today.” And that wouldn’t have happened if we just tried to slam your fist on the table and just play that hardball card all the time.

(00:27:50):

They talked a lot about trust and transparency. Vulnerability was a huge theme as well. So, Brian, throwing it over to you. Obviously, those are traits that define great builder partners, but can you tell me a little bit about other traits that make up great partnerships, especially when those customers understand it’s not just about the cheapest price or rebate return?

Brian Humphreys (00:28:10):

Yeah, I would say it really does go back to having relationships with the customers, with the builders, and the builders valuing the relationships with the manufacturers. Some builders may just rely solely on their installing contractor and they don’t want to have that direct relationship with a manufacturer, but I think the really good ones, they collaborate with them and it’s not just a one-side-sided ask from them. I’ll give you a good example of it. When we were in a really tough supply crunch, we were working with a custom builder, and we were having challenges getting the product as quickly as what we should. But their build cycle was long, especially during that time, the build cycle was longer even than normal. So, the question was, you know when this product is being specified, you have a long build cycle, why isn’t the contractor ordering the product faster?

(00:29:10):

So, my team went and met with the plumbing contractor, and the plumbing contractor said, “The reason why I’m not ordering it faster is because this builder has a tendency to allow reselects.” So just giving you a little bit more background. At the time, everybody’s locked in, COVID, all that other stuff, they’re online, they’re looking at different websites, they’re rethinking different designs, they’ve got time on their hands. So, it’s only natural they’re going to come back and say, “You know what? Instead of that faucet, I want this faucet.” Or “Instead of that product, I want this product.” Well that, especially during that time, was creating havoc. And by allowing them to do reselects, it was giving the contractor hesitation of, “Hey, if I order this in, then it comes into the distributor and then they do a reselect, I’m still on the hook for this. It’s going to create an issue.”

(00:29:58):

So, in going back to the builder and pointing that out, they totally understood it, and we’re able, together, to come up with a solution. Versus, at times it’s like, I don’t care what the reason is, you figure it out, that’s your problem. So, in my experience, CBUSA and the builders, they really do … Whenever we’re looking at an issue, it really is a holistic approach of what’s going to work for everybody, because it’s only solutions that work for everybody that are going to be long-term solutions. And really the foundation of coming to those understandings is the relationship, which CBUSA does a great job. I’ve always said that one of the greatest values of CBUSA to a manufacturer, especially in a Kohler company, is there’s so many great custom builders that are out across the country, there’s no way we could ever reach all of them. You would have to have an enormous sales group that was out there calling on all of them.

(00:30:57):

But when you have a organization like CBUSA that partners with the best of them and does a great job on cultivating those partnerships and connecting everybody together, it’s a huge help. And that also plays into … Thom and I can have a great relationship, so from Kohler to CBUSA, corporately, but if we’re not driving that local relationship, we’re dead in the water. Like Jon mentioned it earlier about having that local rep and that connection there. It doesn’t mean that Jon can’t ever come to me or go to Thom or wherever, but we really do rely on having really strong local relationships. We expect those local sales executives to have strong relationships with their installing contractor, with the supplying distributor, so that when an issue does come up and we call there locally, they’re already looped in. They know what the issue is, they know what the problem is we need to overcome and we can get to it much faster.

(00:31:52):

So I would say that the best partners are proactive. They want solutions that work for everybody and that they value relationships. And you mentioned price, customers that just focus solely on price, which we’re a realist, we understand that affordability is a big thing right now, even at every level of home that you buy. But I think what everybody’s trying to deliver, what Kohler’s trying to deliver, and Jon and Thom, what everybody’s trying to deliver is value. We’re trying to deliver value. So, when you’re looking at value, you’re looking at the entire cost, not just the upfront price, but what is the experience like the whole way through? And that’s what we’re trying to deliver. But you can’t do that sitting in your office, you have to be in the field, you have to be together with these customers in order to identify issues and then find solutions and implement them.

Scott Hale (00:32:51):

Yeah. A lot of this talk about partnership really brings to mind two conversations I have with CBUSA folks all the time surrounding punching above your weight class, as well as increasing your operational maturity. So, I kind of want to head in that direction. We hear those phrases quite a bit. Let’s talk about why it separates thriving builders from struggling ones. So, Thom, throwing it to you. From your vantage point, what distinguishes CBUSA builders who continue to thrive in unpredictable conditions through these partnerships?

Thom Black (00:33:24):

It’s a great question, Scott. I love the punching above your weight class. Coming from that line, coming from the dealer side, I was part of four different centralization efforts for large, large dealers. We’re talking number one and number two in this space. And when you can bring leverage through scale, you obviously not just lower cost. And it’s not always about cost. And I’m going to go back and tie it back to something Brian just said. But again, I said it earlier in the first response, you bring a more present seat at the table for all the partners. So, when I think about success and I think about what distinguishes the builders who are thriving versus builders who are not, it’s Brian’s comment about focusing on value versus focusing on just price and cost. I used to give this analogy all the time, and this is very, very niche, but before the pandemic and when I was in an office every day, I was a big fan of shell cordovan shoes.

(00:34:37):

For people who don’t know what those are, they’re very expensive, but you never have to replace the shoe. All you have to do is maybe occasionally replace the sole. You pay more for it, but you’ve got a shoe that’s going to last you a lifetime. So when I think about builders who thrive and partners who thrive, and I’m talking from the manufacturer to the dealer, to the group purchasing organization like CBUSA, to the builder, it’s those that are focused on the value that they’re bringing, not just the cost and the price in the marketplace. Anybody could be a cheap price at any given time, but cheap price doesn’t always lead to quality, which doesn’t always lead to resilience. Jon referenced before, Homes by Dickerson has been around since 1975. They turned 50 the same year I turned 50. And for what it’s worth, Homes By Dickerson has been successful in the Raleigh market and all the other markets that they build in because of their reputation, because they build value. And people who are familiar with that brand, they understand that.

(00:35:41):

The other thing I would tack onto that, I think whether you’re talking about the builder or you’re talking about the relationship of the GPO, the group purchasing organization to the manufacturer, or the dealers, it doesn’t matter, distributors, I think it’s focusing on those three key things that I like to, no matter where I’ve been, try to keep our team squarely focused on. I refer to it as a north star. And that is, number one, analytics. You just don’t shoot from the hip all the time, you have to drive it off data. And the more that you can share, the more transparency you can give, the better that your partners understand what the value of partnering with you is. Second one is consistency. You don’t want to be erratic. You want to come to the table the same way every day, day after day. When you build consistency and you factor in there a legacy of analytics and data sharing, it’s pretty strong.

(00:36:37):

Final one is doing what you said you’re going to do. When I joined this industry almost 20 years ago, I had a chief supply chain officer who once said, “This industry is one of the few that a handshake and your word actually still mean something.” Early in my career, I was a lumber buyer. That’s how I started was a commodity lumber buyer. And it’s one of the few industries still today that you can pick up the phone, you can call a lumber mill or a wholesaler, and you can buy a couple million dollars’ worth of lumber by saying, “Use purchase order Thom, one through 20.” And they will live up to that so long as you have shown your willingness to be transparent and be consistent through the years, and then you’ve done what you said you’re going to do. And I think that that is the key to success for the builders who are thriving versus ones who may be struggling.

Scott Hale (00:37:30):

Yeah, that’s huge what you say about consistency. You can’t wait until you need a favor to build trust. That’s the real long game, right?

Thom Black (00:37:30):

That’s right.

Scott Hale (00:37:37):

So, Brian, what does that supplier transparency look like on your side? How does that expectation setting help stabilize the markets all around you?

Brian Humphreys (00:37:47):

I think the use of transparency and collaboration, the partnership, being able to talk freely about what the core of the issues are, really help you solve the underlying issue rather than just trying to do a one-off solve. A lot of times that’s what happens, because everybody’s really, busy. I’m busy, the builder’s busy, everybody’s busy and it’s like, “Hey, we’ve got to solve for this issue right away.” And you’ll solve for that and it’ll keep coming up, but if you really stop and say, “All right, what’s the underlying issue here that’s causing this?” I think the example that I gave before about one of the underlying issues was, is that the contractor wasn’t ordering in time because we were afraid there was going to be a reselect. That’s one example, but every issue has their underlying reasons of why it is. And don’t get me wrong, there’s sometimes where, look, you got to go and you got to solve it now, and you can’t try to diagnose and solve every underlying issue.

(00:38:52):

When you have a real partner and there’s a relationship there and you want to do the right thing, sometimes you just got to get it done. But also, I think that being transparent and saying, “Hey, if you’re going to offer a breadth of product this large,” which a lot of custom builders kind of have to do, “if you’re going to do that, you’ve got to be honest and say, ‘In order for us to be successful together long-term, we’ve got to have the selections earlier.'” The contractor has to have the confidence to order it earlier in order to better serve you. If we can’t get to there, then it’s going to be your challenge all the time. We’re always going to be chasing our tail and nobody wants to do that. The builders don’t want to do it. I don’t want to do it. Plumbers and distributors don’t want to do it, but that’s like the transparency.

(00:39:38):

Whatever that hook is, whatever that issue is, and it does kind of go a little bit to being vulnerable. And I think that one issue that manufacturer or maybe salespeople in general have is that you got a great partner, you’ve got a great customer, nobody wants to say no or nobody wants to push and say, “Let’s get to this core issue so that we don’t have to keep going through this challenge every single time.” But you have to be transparent and honest and say, “Hey, here’s what’s at the heart of the issue.” And then, “How do we solve it together?”

Scott Hale (00:40:13):

Yeah. And it sounds like a lot of what you’re pointing out is the old Bill Belichick saying, “Do your job.” Everyone can control what they can control.

Brian Humphreys (00:40:19):

That’s right.

Scott Hale (00:40:21):

And a lot of that comes down to discipline. So, Jon, from your world, how does discipline really shape the trust you get back from suppliers and trades?

Jon Showalter (00:40:30):

Well, I think I’ll get to discipline, but I’m going to start in a little bit different spot and get there. I think one of the things that is unique about this relationship, the trifecta of people that are on this as guests on this podcast, on this episode of it, represents kind of a three-legged stool. And I think that when the builder can have the conversation with CBUSA about … In this case, let’s just say Kohler just because they’re represented here. And then CBUSA can kind of take the conversations and say, “Oh, we’re hearing this from all of the same region, but the other regions of the country aren’t having this issue.” So that helps then Kohler say, “Oh, this is a Southeast region issue,” that helps maybe narrow in an issue. Or CBUSA can also say, “Well, Jon, we’re not hearing this from anybody else but you.”

(00:41:41):

And that’s not Kohler then pointing out that it might be an issue with the builder. And there can be this coaching that can go from, say, the builder, or from CBUSA back to the builder, and it’s not putting the manufacturer on the hot seat because the manufacturer and CBUSA can actually have a sidebar conversation. Sometimes the builder and the manufacturer kind of need to talk about CBUSA, to be able to say like, “Hey, these are things that aren’t quite going well,” and it’s easier for the builder to go to it. So how does that get back to the discipline question that you asked? And I think the discipline; I think where you’re going with that question is how do we coach internally to make sure that our purchasing department is following up and doing what Brian and Kohler need to have us do to keep going on that same line of ordering on time?

(00:42:42):

And I think that the understanding that you’re not just an individual, you’re part of this whole network of folks that are all kind of moving in the same direction. I kind of think about when you mentioned the quality of builder that is part of CBUSA. And CBUSA, I think, vets builders before they come into a chapter. We don’t want just any builder. We want to be careful. We’re not a country club. This isn’t a social, some type of clique, but this is a group of builders that exemplify the best and the best because we’re willing to go out and do what we say we’re going to do. We’re willing to be transparent, we’re willing to be vulnerable, we’re willing to enter in agreements and honor them. I think we’re also able to be coached. And I think that that is important, because as Brian mentioned, sometimes we need the problem to be solved right now, and sometimes it’s the proverbial sledgehammer killing an app.

(00:43:56):

But that’s what we need to have because of the pressures that we have in our marketplace, with maybe a particular client, maybe something that is critical to get done at a specific time. Other times, it’s a systematic issue that can be investigated and really figured out. Is it a builder issue? Is it a distributor issue? Is it a manufacturing issue? But we have time to figure it out. And the discipline is, is being able to identify that, figure out which one do we have here. And let’s face it, builders tend to always have a fire. I mean, we tend to pick up the phone and be like, “I need it done right now,” if I’m the buyer. And I think we must be better at distinguishing when we might need to look in the mirror a little bit and figure out, hey, what are we doing? And we need to be able to receive that information.

(00:44:51):

And then we can’t just receive that one time. Well, what I mean by that is we can’t receive it and then forget it on the next order. We’ve got to receive it and then create processes internally that match processes inside of the distribution channel or the manufacturing channel. And then, quite honest, we’ve got another … We were having this order issue just with one of our other CBUSA partners not that long ago and really issues where they were kind of getting a bad name about not hitting order dates and not fulfilling orders on time. And it was as simple as a Brian level executive and me getting on the phone and saying, “Hey, you know what? Can you just share that data with me? Can you just show me what data you’re getting?”

(00:45:52):

And what we quickly realized was there were some issues on both sides of the desk, but instead of me trying to fix their issue and them trying to fix our issue, we just identified where each other’s issues were. And it was amazing to me, within six weeks … Well, within eight weeks, within two reporting cycles, because they reported these numbers to us monthly, we had dramatically improved our processes, which allowed them to improve their ability to serve us. And within about another two or three processes, it had improved that much more. And I think it was just the sharing of data. It was just the ability to say, “You know what?” And in our case, it was our production folks. We were able to go back to our production folks and go, “You guys aren’t releasing the POs in a timely fashion. And if you would just release those POs, then this manufacturer,” who was doing some direct distribution for us, “will be able to fulfill in a timely fashion and we won’t have this frustration.”

(00:47:07):

We have continued to get that report and I’ve continued to share it to reinforce the discipline. It’s a little bit shocking to me though sometimes how manufacturers are. They hold onto that data; they’ll tell you have it. And it’s not so much with manufacturers. This kind of goes down into the local suppliers and distributors. They have the information, they’re reluctant to share it with the builder community because they’re afraid that we’re going to use that back against them. And we’re going to be able to be like, “Well, they’re complaining about our process. We’ll just go buy somewhere else.” And I think that inside of CBUSA for the last decade, we have talked about cost to serve. And cost to serve aligns with discipline.

(00:47:54):

Every builder, there is a cost that a supplier, a manufacturer, a distributor, there’s a cost in doing business with every single builder. And it’s how well we operate our business. And if you’re a good builder, you’re willing to hear what that cost to serve is, because if it’s high cost to serve Homes by Dickerson, then there’s probably something wrong inside of our organization that if we fixed it, we’re going to be more profitable. We’re going to be a better company. We maybe can improve that client experience. It can be a holistic approach as long as you’re willing to accept that information and accept it in a way that you’re going to allow yourself to be coached, and then potentially even allow yourself to then coach others.

(00:48:37):

For example, I think there have been times that we have had … Well, in my case, I’m thinking about a local vendor who said, “Hey, I think if you talk to so-and-so in the marketplace, they could help you figure out this problem that you seem to be having.” And then in other cases, we’ve had a vendor say, “Hey, would you mind if I dropped your name? And would you talk to so-and-so in the Nashville market and just share with them how you approach X, Y, Z, because they’re struggling to figure out how to do something?” And that has all been inside the CBUSA family. And that goes back to being able to have these conversations, being willing to be coached. And that might not exactly be discipline or the definition of discipline, but it is the ability to open yourself up and realize that even if you’ve been in business 50 years, man, there’s somebody that could have been in business five years and have a better process because they have fresh eyes on it or whatever.

(00:49:51):

And I really think that that’s a nutshell of one of the bigger advantages of being a part of CBUSA, as long as you’re open to it, and as long as you realize that you have peers, some of the best peers nationwide. And when you go to The Summit, which is the annual conference, you’re really among the best of the best. And hearing those stories, and hearing people have some of the same frustrations and going, “How are you solving that?” Or, “What are you doing with AI?” Or, “How do you handle keeping employee retention?” Or the myriad of things that we all battle day in and day out.

Scott Hale (00:50:32):

Yeah, I think that’s a huge sign of operational maturity and organizational maturity to go out and ask for another opinion, ’cause you’ve got to put your ego aside and say, “We need some help. We have some problems we can’t solve ourselves.”

Jon Showalter (00:50:46):

I wanted to make another little point back, and I’m going to back up for just a minute. And this is, I think, one of the benefits that manufacturers have in working with CBUSA. And I know our chapter here in Raleigh, which is called the Triangle Builders Guild, I know we do this. I hope other markets do it as well, but this is top of mind ’cause I just did it this morning. Which is we have a three-year projection survey where we survey our builders, it happens to be right at 30 builders in the Raleigh market, and we only ask for their three-year projections.

(00:51:24):

We say, “What are you going to build? What did you do in 2025? What are you going to do in ’26? What are you going to do in ’27? What are you going to do in ’28? And what’s your average house price?” What I think is good about that data for the Kohlers of the world is that’s a view into the private industry. The publics are pretty good about putting that out there, but this is the view into the private industry. And I think that this is something that CBUSA, I think, can improve on from all our different markets. How many markets are we in, Thom, like 40? I don’t know.

Thom Black (00:52:02):

About 40.

Jon Showalter (00:52:04):

And that is a great insight, I think, for the manufacturers simply because I don’t know where else they get private information from, because we tend to be pretty close to the vest for whatever reason. Publics have to be public. But anyway, I don’t know how that quite fits in, but I thought it was a point worth interjecting here.

Scott Hale (00:52:30):

[00:52:30] Yeah. No, it’s a great segue into our final topic of discussion. We’ve talked about how things work, how to mature as an organization, but let’s kind of wrap up by looking forward. Inevitably, next year is going to create both stress and opportunity, but what should our partners be preparing for? So, Thom, how do you see access to national brands and senior decision makers evolving, especially for smaller builders who use CBUSA to punch above their weight?

Thom Black (00:52:56):

Yeah. Jon, and we don’t have time to go into it today, but Jon, I’ll try to give the very short version of this. Jon tells a great story that I heard him tell in DC at our summit about his interaction with Kohler, and how Homes by Dickerson is a sizable home builder here in the Raleigh market but didn’t think necessarily they would have the level of access that they would have to leadership at companies like Kohler. And it’s a great story from a standpoint of the introduction happened through CBUSA. Jon was working at conversion, received a phone call back from the Kohler family member months and months later, maybe a year later. So that’s just one small example of how the builders who participate and are actively engaged can punch above their weight class.

(00:53:47):

There was also a topic Jon mentioned before that I think ties to this and its executive think is the concept. I learned this a long time ago from a person much smarter than me, and it was, you hear something once, you jot it down. Doesn’t mean it’s a trend. You hear something three times, well, maybe you start paying attention a little bit more. You hear it six to 10 times, there’s probably definitely a trend there. And I think when you think about my team, national purchasing, if you will, and it’s the same thing throughout the supply chain; when do you escalate? And with the uncertainty that’s coming, I think just resounding themes throughout the entire call here today: transparency, analytics, consistency. These are all things that when you prove yourself over time with a manufacturing partner, they’re more apt to take that phone call when you do call. And it’s up to us to determine, like Jon said, when is it an internal problem? When is it truly a network problem?

(00:54:48):

And being willing to be coached. Be willing to not just assume that your side is right, that the manufacturing partner or the distributor partner, whoever it might be, they may have different levels of analytics that help you have a higher level of clarity as to what the problem is. But to directly answer your question with the uncertainty that’s in front of us, which is headwinds on affordability, yep, Brian referenced before, maybe we do see a surge in housing starts with lower interest rates next year. Right now, it seems like from talking to our manufacturing partners, and you talk to the national builders, you talk to many of our builders, right now the sentiment is, well, maybe it’s flat, maybe it’s a little down. But if we do get a lift, the only way we’re going to navigate that together, with a supply chain as tight as it is, is through that continued transparency and picking when to escalate.

(00:55:41):

And I think the important thing is understanding what is the problem that will innately, with the proper level of pressure, go away very quickly versus which is the one that we need to solve for innately that can disrupt the supply chain and disrupt the build cycle for a longer period of time? And I think that from my seat, and when I’m working with folks like Jon and other folks in the network and our manufacturing partners, it’s just having a clear, open dialogue about what should we escalate, how do we escalate? And most importantly, understand that these are our partners. We can’t do it without them, so always act with respect and apply the golden rule; treat others how you want to be treated. And again, do what you say you’re going to do.

(00:56:31):

So, I think, long answer to your question, determining which are the real things that are worth escalating, prioritizing those. Going back and wrapping it all the way around to the first question and your comment about servant leadership, make sure that we’re all on the boat, boys in the boat, rowing together. There are so many seats in that crew. If you get out of sync, the boat doesn’t move the way it’s supposed to. So, I think it’s just that clear communication and transparency that will help drive that and set the priorities.

Scott Hale (00:57:05):

Yeah, absolutely. And one thing we haven’t talked a ton about is how technology plays a part in that evolution, in making sure that everyone’s rowing the boat in the same direction. So, Brian, where will technology make the biggest difference over the next year? Is it in forecasting, visibility, communication, just general alignment?

Brian Humphreys (00:57:24):

It’s hard to say where it’s going to make the biggest impact, but I don’t think volatility’s going away. I think it just feels like maybe because it’s been here so long, maybe I feel that way, but I don’t know that there’s going to be a new normal. I think it’s going to continue to be volatile, and whatever happens over the next year is probably going to surprise most of us on this call. So I think where technology is going to really, really help is through forecasting. And it’s amazing to me with the number of builders that I know and deal with … And this isn’t like just custom builders, or national builders, or regional builders, it’s almost all of them. But having a software that gives a really solid look into what their demand is down to a SKU level is very rare. It exists, but it’s very, very rare.

(00:58:15):

And I have noticed, though, that it’s becoming more common. There are some different platforms out there that are making it better, but when those insights come to light … And this isn’t just a Kohler thing; I think any major manufacturer will tell you this. When they can see that forecast, that visibility, the impact it has on our ability to be a better supplier is incredible. And the tools that we have internally through Power BI and just simple dashboards and things, that we’re able to set up to really make sure that we’re delivering, is great. We’ve gotten that first layer deep. Distributors know, down to the SKU level, exactly what’s going on orders. Seeing that POS and seeing their on-hand inventory is a big deal, but I really feel like over the next couple of years, getting a layer deeper into the builder and what they are selling is incredibly important.

(00:59:16):

Number one, most of the builders within CBUSA are selling upgrades. And many of them are spending time to present those upgrades to buyers, and it represents a revenue source for the builder. So if you’re able to evaluate the performance of a potential upgrade, if it’s not performing, we can recommend a different one. If it is performing, then we should double down, make sure we have it in inventory ready to go. But those insights, getting ahold of them has always been a challenge in the past. And I see that getting better, and I’m hoping that over the next year that that gets a lot better. As far as communication, number one, there’s no replacement of a relationship, being able to pick up the phone and call somebody. But there is a lot going on. And Kohler isn’t like a monoline manufacturer, we make a lot of different products: faucets, sinks, toilets, saunas, ice bath.

(01:00:16):

We make all sorts of different products. There’s always change tidbits that are coming that we want to make sure that our customers are aware of without spamming them to death with a bunch of emails. You know what I mean? So, what is the best way we get the most relevant information into the right customer’s hands? And I’ve seen a lot of improvement there, but I think if manufacturing in general, manufacturers in general could do that really, well so that the builder can better understand what’s coming, what’s changing, I think that’ll be a big unlock in the communication area.

(01:00:56):

But supplier alignment, again, I really feel comes down to relationships. And it comes down to understanding what’s important and challenging for CBUSA, for their builders, and making sure that we react quickly. And kind of going back to one of our earlier points about being nimble, but you must understand what are the challenges that we need to try to help them solve. And I think that comes through solid relationships, not necessarily technology.

Scott Hale (01:01:27):

Yeah. Relationships built on visibility. Obviously, you mentioned forecasting as well. Jon, you’ve seen those forecasts from your chapter and you know what those projections look like, so in your opinion, what should builders invest in now, whether that’s operationally or relationally, to prepare for that next cycle?

Jon Showalter (01:01:51):

So in an ideal situation here, we’re going to see interest rates gradually move towards starting with a five. I think our fear, and I think I’m saying our fear in terms of Homes by Dickerson, but I believe that this is a fear that’s shared by other builders in the spectrum, is that we’re going to see a dramatic drop in interest rates. Which I don’t think is going to happen here in the future, I mean, like in the immediate future, but if we ever see through whatever … Yeah, and I’m not smart enough to understand the economics along the lines of what drops an interest rate quickly. But if something ever happens where we say suddenly go from a 6.3, 6.4 to a five and a half in a short period of time, we’re going to go back into that surge area that we were that we’ve talked about earlier. And I think what’s going to happen then is you’re going to get back into this pricing scenario that becomes very problematic and that clients don’t understand.

(01:03:11):

I think there is a decent chance that we’re going to end up back in a spot where demand outpaces supply. If we had that crystal ball that Brian talked about earlier, we’d know when to pull this trigger, but we don’t. But preparing for that and understanding, okay, we lived through it several years ago and we weren’t really prepared to communicate that well to our client so that either our client didn’t get the short end of the stick because we overpriced the house to them and they felt like they had to take that price because things were just going at such a rapid rate, or we underpriced a house and then we took a bath on it. And both of those things happened, and they kind of averaged themselves out in our case. And you would look at our report on a quarterly basis and you would see that some people unfortunately didn’t pay near enough for the house, and some people probably paid more than they should have had we been able to know exactly what the price was.

(01:04:21):

And I think the escalator pricing that a lot of builders tried to use was very uncomfortable. I think builders preparing for what I still see as some pent-up demand coming is figuring out a way to be transparent and honest with their clients about a fair way to say, “Hey, I’m pricing this house to you here and I’m not going to deliver it until a year from now. And I need to provide some controls there, but for me to give you the best price here, I need to have some protection here. But I can’t expect you to just take whatever I give you at the end of the year or at the end of the build.” We’ve got some ideas there around creating some indices, some things like that that help a client, that tie it to something that’s not some arbitrary number that we have or whatever, but tying it to something.

(01:05:16):

I think the industry’s going to have to evolve a little bit in how we deliver price to the client. And I think we have to understand that, but treat our client fairly, because those of us who do not are going to have an awful client experience and it’s going to show in what we sell in the future. So that’s one thing I think builders have to at least start thinking about now or they’re going to get caught, and either they’re going to make a poor decision and it’s going to affect them negatively on one end of the spectrum.

Scott Hale (01:05:52):

Yeah, that’s something that’s going-

Jon Showalter (01:05:52):

I think it’s hard-

Scott Hale (01:05:54):

Oh, sorry. Go ahead, Jon.

Jon Showalter (01:05:55):

And I think it’s hard not to bring up AI in this technology conversation. I think the fear is that, at least internally for us, is that we don’t set a policy where people start substituting AI for facts instead of vetting it. And so, we’ve started talking about AI as augmented intelligence, not artificial intelligence. Right? You need to be able to know when to use it and when to back off and really engage. And I think for us, our approach is going to be using that technology to take care of some of the mundane tasks, like prove that you can generate this report, or look at this KPI, and take the time that you use to do that with to improve client experience and to improve the relationships that you have with the appropriate people on whatever level you are. And I mean exterior relationships, like with the vendors, the distributors, the subcontractors and manufacturers, and different folks in our organization have different responsibilities when it comes to relationships.

(01:07:03):

But I think it’s going to always be tough for us when we’re on that custom level to get down to the SKU forecasting that Brian is hopeful that we can give them, because I think we just offer too much flexibility to our client, but we can certainly do better. And I think the way we do better at that is reducing some of those mundane tasks, like offloading that to let the augmented intelligence handle that and put more time back into our folks being able to go, “We’re getting our clients to make a decision sooner. We can therefore project what they’re doing better.” And maybe we can then start saying, “Hey, that black faucet that is hot right now, we think that’s going to continue to be hot and we’re going to sell 200 of those in the next six months.” But I think that’s a pretty far out in the future for us, at least as a custom home builder.

Scott Hale (01:08:03):

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, all of this has been insightful. I have learned quite a bit in this conversation, so I really appreciate it. If we could do one last speed round just around the horn. Complete this sentence for me, if you could. In an evolving market, trust looks like blank. We’ll start with you, Brian.

Brian Humphreys (01:08:21):

Trust looks like great relationships, and that doesn’t happen overnight. So, there’s no way I meet Jon today and Jon trusts me tomorrow. That is a work in progress. So, I think you’ve got to continue to build those. Thom made a great point and said, “You got to do what you say you’re going to do,” and that’s a great way to build that trust. But if you’re not, as a manufacturer, as a builder, as a distributor, as a contractor, if you’re not constantly building those relationships and making it a two-way street, and engaging and helping understand issues and trying to solve issues in a way that’s good for everybody, there’s simply no way to build a strong trust.

(01:09:11):

I also think that if we’re able to do that, if I can build trust with a great builder, if I can build trust with a great organization like CBUSA, if I can build trust with great contractors, then you really start to build a reputation. And I think the reputation is what really drives trust. It can either drive it or it can kill it right off the bat. If you start building a bad reputation, if Kohler didn’t step up and do what was right for CBUSA builders, trust me, I know this organization well enough, that will circulate quickly and it would be dead in the water. So, I think trust is all about relationships and your reputation.

Scott Hale (01:09:58):

Love that. So Jon, same question. Can you complete the sentence for me real quick? In an evolving market, trust looks like blank.

Jon Showalter (01:10:07):

I think there are times when, and this podcast is an excellent example, there are times when a video conference, being on a video platform, it is the right thing to do. There was an old, I think it was a United Airlines ad that hasn’t run for 10 years, but they were in a … I think it was right at the advent of when email really started to become prevalent. And what I remember about the ad was it was a CEO, and he had everybody in the conference room and he started handing out plane tickets. And he said, “What we’re going to do is we’re going to go back and meet people face-to-face.” And I’m not saying that we need to completely run away from these types of platforms, because these platforms have their use. But even in our local market, the Triangle Builders Guild, we just had Meet the Builder night where we invited the manufacturers, we invited the subcontractors and vendors that participate with us to come in. And it was a face-to-face event.

(01:11:13):

And I’m convinced that in a market where everything has gone digital, that when trust is built, and trust looks like those face-to-face meetings, that again, doesn’t have to be every week, it doesn’t have to be every meeting, but The Summit conference that CBUSA holds … I see Brian probably once a year. Every now and then we’ll run into each other somewhere else, but what that does is that creates the foundation for everything else that we’ve talked about, at least for me, and I think for many other in the industry. And so I think that trust is just continuing to enhance these relationships so that we can be honest with each other.

Scott Hale (01:12:00):

Yeah, I appreciate that. Trust looks like face-to-face meeting and honesty. So, bring us home, Thom. In an evolving market, trust looks like blank.

Thom Black (01:12:10):

I love the Match Game reference. It’s a lot of fun. So, when I think about that, Scott, I think about trust is being present. And I’m going to tie this to personal, not just work, but personal relationships and things that I struggle with and I try to change to be better. But trust is being present, trust is being sincere, trust is being able to actively listen. Tying it back to everything that we talked about today, I worked with a gentleman, a previous employer, his name is Joe Todd, and Joe’s a very smart guy. Very, very smart guy. And he used to say all the time, “Math isn’t emotional. People are emotional.” People add the emotion to math, right? Math is just numbers.

(01:12:59):

So, to fully answer the question, trust is doing what you say you’re going to do even if the math changes. Because again, tying it back to what we’ve already said multiple times, if you say you’re going to do X and then you swerve and do Y, I mean, are you really being reliable? Are you being consistent? So, I think being present, sincere, and continuing to do what you say you’re going to do even when the math doesn’t go your way, that’s trust. And that’s something foundationally that you can build a long-term relationship on, right?

Scott Hale (01:13:35):

Yeah, that’s great. I mean, the common thread here seems simple. You can’t control the market. One thing you can control is how you partner though, through those honest, open, transparent relationships. And we’ve heard a lot about how CBUSA helps builders build those networks that create stability, and stability is what we’re looking for in this sort of volatile line of work. So really appreciate everything you guys have talked about today. Thank you, Thom, Jon, Brian. Really insightful. If you’re looking for more insights, visit cbusa.us and buildertrend.com/podcast. And that’s all we’ve got for this episode of The Building Code. Appreciate y’all and we’ll see you next time.