Tips for regulating emotions: How not to lose your sh*t when things get heated

Charley Burtwistle (00:05):

What is up everybody? Welcome back to “The Building Code.” I’m your co-host, Charley Burtwistle.

Courtney Mattern (00:11):

And I’m Courtney Mattern.

Charley Burtwistle (00:12):

Courtney Mattern, air horns. Very, very excited. This is our first episode together in a long, long time. How are you doing?

Courtney Mattern (00:20):

I’m doing great. I’m so happy to be on the podcast not alone this time. There’s a couple episodes before this that I took the lead solo, which …

Charley Burtwistle (00:31):

Yeah, well that was all payback because you made me do a couple episodes solo.

Courtney Mattern (00:34):

Okay. I was wondering, I thought maybe it was hazing, bullying. I might have placed a complaint in HR, just saying.

Charley Burtwistle (00:40):

Well, I was a little nervous for today. I don’t think we should forget here. You’re technically my boss on the podcast, so this is kind of an interview-esque type feeling for me coming in today.

Courtney Mattern (00:51):

Yeah, I’m really here to see if I need to boot you off.

Charley Burtwistle (00:54):

Yeah, I know. Trust me, I’m feeling, I’m feeling the heat. My emotions are flaring up a little bit. Luckily today, we have someone to talk to us about emotions, regulating those emotions and what you can do to improve on them. So, Courtney, who do we have today?

Courtney Mattern (01:08):

So, we’re joined by Estie Briggs. She is an emotional intelligence coach or EI, if you’re into acronyms, and business consultant with more than 20 years’ experience. Basically, she’s teaching leaders how not to lose their shit.

Charley Burtwistle (01:21):

How not to lose your shit. I think I was super fired up when I saw her name and the bio come across. For our listeners, some of the things I want to hit on is, the construction industry is a very, very stressful industry to be a part of for a lot of different reasons. And I think two of the main pain points that we’ve heard from our listeners recently is, how do we make the working environment as good as we can for employees to retain top talent and make a world-class business? And how do we provide an exceptional client experience? And when you’re working in the industry such as construction, have such high stress situations that you’re dealing with constantly, those two things can be really, really hard to do if you don’t have well-regulated emotions and can handle these stressful situations professionally, so.

Courtney Mattern (02:06):

And if you’re one of our listeners, the chance is high that you have big goals. You want to grow, you want to scale, and we’ve brought you a lot of content downloadables, things that are three steps to scale your business, and we kind of always lean into that logical side. Right? How can you change your operations? How can you become more efficient? How can you document your progress? But there’s another side of business that can help you achieve your goals, and that’s mastering your emotions and your reactions and your relationships. It takes what, 30 people on average, to build a house? So, you’re interacting with all sorts of personalities every day. And how you decide to react or even decide at all how you’re going to react, can really make a difference when it comes to growing your business.

Charley Burtwistle (02:54):

Yeah, absolutely. That is why we have Estie Briggs. I’m very, very excited to talk to her. So, without further ado, let’s get into it.

(03:01):

Estie, welcome to “The Building Code.” Very, very excited to have you on today and appreciate you making the time. How are you doing today?

Estie Briggs (03:08):

I’m great. How are you guys?

Charley Burtwistle (03:09):

We are doing fantastic. Courtney?

Courtney Mattern (03:11):

10 out of 10.

Estie Briggs (03:11):

Nice.

Charley Burtwistle (03:12):

10 out of 10. That’s the type of energy that we like to have going into these. So, obviously, we did a bit of research beforehand, read your bio and everything. Very excited to talk to you, but for our listeners out there, can you give just a quick little who you are, how you got to be where you’re at today, overview background on Estie?

Estie Briggs (03:30):

Sure, thank you. So, I am an emotional intelligence coach. I also do change management consulting, and they’re actually related, and but my background is in learning and development and training. And I spent about 20 years in that field in the mortgage industry, and then when I got out of the mortgage industry, I basically left corporate and went to running my own performance consulting company in 2015. And I love that I get to help people improve their communication skills for a living, basically.

(04:13):

So, I do a lot of work with teams and individuals, just working on things like understanding that we all have different communication styles, and building self-awareness, and we can get more into that. But yeah, and I was born and raised in the Bay Area, so I’m in San Francisco, Bay Area, Bay Area native. I’m a mom of a teenager and aspiring homesteader with chickens and a couple of dogs.

Charley Burtwistle (04:45):

Awesome, that’s the dream right there. Obviously, we’re going to get into the performance coaching and the theme of today’s episode is regulating emotions. But one quick thing on your intro that I want to touch on, just because I’m curious, a lot of the people that we have on the podcast started their own construction businesses. So, I always like hearing the entrepreneurial story of when you left the industry and decided to start your own firm. What was the decision or thought process there?

Estie Briggs (05:12):

Yeah, I’m glad you asked because it’s funny, the time that I spent in the mortgage industry, I loved the people, but I didn’t always … Well, I don’t want to just pick on the mortgage industry, but the time that I spent in corporate working 9:00 to 5:00, I really did work for some amazing leaders. And then other end of the spectrum, I worked for some really, really hard people to work with, really difficult managers that would make people cry.

(05:39):

And I know even though I was in corporate, and I’ll just add this as a side note, I do a lot of work now with construction companies because I relate to that field. I was married for 20 years to a construction contractor, and I saw how he regulated emotions or didn’t and interacted with people. So, we can come back to that, but my exit from corporate into being an entrepreneur was, it resulted in a layoff that when the layoff actually happened, I was pretty happy because I had been pretty miserable. And I’d been building things that I loved doing. I would run workshops just for fun. I would do lunch and learns just for fun.

(06:36):

I went and got a certification in emotional intelligence, which really fascinated me, and I found myself in this position where I’d been laid off from a job that was paying the bills, but I wasn’t crazy about it. And I had all these tools that I knew could help people, and people were always coming to me for. And I was like, let me just do this in the world and get paid for it and see what happens. And it hasn’t been easy, it’s been a lot of learning, but it’s something that I think a lot of people don’t get to say, that they get to be paid to do what they love. So, I feel really fortunate that I’m in that position. I don’t know if I answered that question great.

Courtney Mattern (07:20):

Well, having worked, you mentioned on your transition from corporate to owning your own business that you worked with really, really great leaders on one end of the spectrum and then difficult leaders, which I think that’s a really nice way to say it. But what is something that when you went to run your own business that you, a lesson learned or a trait that you wanted to emulate from those great leaders? Maybe one you didn’t want to emulate from the poor leaders?

Estie Briggs (07:46):

Oh, yeah, that’s a great question. The biggest thing I think that the not-so-great leaders were lacking was self-awareness, and self-awareness sounds like a no-brainer, just being aware of how you’re feeling is a form of self-awareness. But there’s also what I’ve learned is external self-awareness, which is being aware of how you show up affects other people. And as soon as that … When I found out that that was a thing, I was like, “Oh, shit, that’s what this person did not have.”

(08:24):

So, often we’ve all been in a room or a Zoom with somebody that shows up and puts other people down or calls people out on their mistakes in a way that is not very skilled, and it affects everybody, and it’s got these ripples. And it’s like, some people just do that, and they just drop that and then they just keep on going and they leave this wake of negativity and unpleasantness, and that’s what I wanted to … I wanted to help build, it sounds lofty, my vision for my company is to help bring more joy to work. And part of that is helping people just show up as people and treat each other as fellow humans, so.

Courtney Mattern (09:17):

That’s probably a good segue right into emotional intelligence. You mentioned self-awareness. Do you want to share with our listeners a little bit about what emotional intelligence is? And then like you said, you’ve been working with construction, and the construction industry, maybe what it’s missing when it comes to emotional intelligence.

Estie Briggs (09:36):

Sure. So, it is a set of skills that basically informs how we do everything. And if you think about your toolkit or a toolbox, you’ve got different tools in it. Your emotional intelligence is the same thing. It’s just a set of skills that you have or tools that you have, and we all have it. Some of us just have … There’s different skillsets and some of them are stronger than others.

(10:07):

So, just a quick example without getting down the rabbit hole. Assertiveness is a skillset in emotional intelligence, and assertiveness is the ability to state what you want in a way that’s not offensive. And some people have really high levels of assertiveness, but then they have lower levels of things like empathy, which is the ability to recognize how somebody else is feeling. And so, what I try to help people do is get all of those, there’s 15 skillsets that I have people self-assess on, and the goal is to get those in balance. So, that you don’t have one that’s way stronger than the other because you can’t go through life just being empathetic, right? We have to balance that out with assertiveness or independence or problem solving or one of the other skillsets.

Courtney Mattern (11:03):

Yeah, sometimes you have to speak up and say what you want, right?

Estie Briggs (11:06):

Yeah, exactly. And surprisingly, well, maybe not surprisingly, but that’s actually, assertiveness is actually one of the ones that comes up repeatedly for people that I’m coaching, that they don’t feel like they’re good at being assertive. It’s not easy for them to speak up, and so, that’s one of the skill sets that we often find ourselves working on.

Courtney Mattern (11:28):

Are all of them from Nebraska? Because we always say that in Nebraska in the Midwest, we’re too nice and we don’t know how to act. We’re like, “Oh, could you maybe, please send that email?”

Estie Briggs (11:38):

Think about, possibly.

Courtney Mattern (11:40):

Yeah.

Estie Briggs (11:42):

No, they’re from all over.

Courtney Mattern (11:43):

Good, good.

Charley Burtwistle (11:44):

I love that. So, I’m a little interested to hear more about the consulting side of things and how you actually work with different engagements and people that come to you looking to improve that skillset that you’re talking about. Maybe a little bit more background into what you do as a company, before we get into some of the meat and potatoes there. Is it weekly coaching lessons? Are you meeting with them one-on-one? Is it more team structure stuff or was does that engagement look like?

Estie Briggs (12:11):

Yeah, sure. No, that’s a good question. It started out doing workshops just kind of very transactionally. People would hire me, and I’d come into a workshop or an offsite for a team. But it’s morphed into, there’s two main things that I do. One is working one-on-one with people. So, either they come to me themselves or sometimes they get referred to me because they’re leading a team. Maybe they’re new to a team and they’re just not … People get promoted all the time because they’re good at their job, but that doesn’t mean that they’re good at leading people. And so, they want to come and learn what skillsets they need to start to build on to be better leaders. So, I do one-on-one coaching sessions, or sometimes I’ll do what I call my, how do I word this? Sorry.

(13:10):

The other thing that I’ve been running lately and that I’ve run most recently this year for a company is, I call it my EQ Masterclass. And so, instead of people coming and doing one-on-one with me, we are together in a group, it’s a cohort of around 25 people, and they all get to work on it together. So, we go through the course, there’s five modules of topics like self-awareness and empathy and emotion regulation, but they’re also looking at their own EQ assessments and doing their own work, and talking to each other about, “Well, how does this show up? What does it look like for you in this area? And how could I do this better in my role?”

(14:00):

And it’s just happened that I’ve navigated towards the construction industry. So, my most recent cohort that I did was for United Contractors, they run this program called PMCA every year, and they put project managers through it, and we now start off that program with emotional intelligence. And I mean, they love it. They come into it not sure what to expect, and it really is about each individual person. It’s not about learning this outside topic, it’s about learning about yourself. So, I think that’s why it resonates with people, regardless of industry.

Charley Burtwistle (14:41):

For sure. And why we were super excited to have you on today, really for a couple of reasons. But first of all is the construction industry is going through a renaissance, in my opinion, of people that have a growth mindset and want to get better. They’re not just running an old mom and pop home building or remodeling business, has been in the company forever. Again, they’re entrepreneurs. And specifically, for our listeners, are really, really hyper focused on being better. How do we improve our company culture? How do we improve our employees? How do we improve the product and work product that we are ultimately passing off to clients? And I think this is an area that we’ve identified, they’ve identified, you’ve identified, has been lacking in the past, and people are kind of craving for coaching and direction on, how do I improve and be more introspective about myself and my employees and my company? So, that’s the first reason we wanted to have you on, is I think there’s a thirst for this type of knowledge out there, specifically.

Estie Briggs (15:36):

I see that, too.

Charley Burtwistle (15:37):

The second is that it’s such a high-stress industry and that, we’ll get into the topic for today around regulating emotion, where you are building someone the largest purchase that they’ll ever have and you’re coordinating across dozens if not hundreds of different employees and subcontractors, trying to make this vision come to fruition on tight timelines and tight budgets. And it gets really, really stressful and, ultimately, people are in this industry, in the space, they’re perfectionists, and they want everything to be perfect. So, that regulating emotion piece is what we wanted to talk to you about, specifically. So, we want to go through some of the tips and tricks that you have, but maybe we’ll start with a more overarching definition of what “regulating emotion” means in your mind.

Estie Briggs (16:23):

Sure, it really comes down to getting to where you can choose the best response for the situation. So, I like to look at it as there’s two things happening. There’s the external thing that’s happening, and then there’s the internal thing that’s happening. Right? So, you get triggered. I’ll invite people during a workshop to reflect on a time that they felt a really strong emotional response to something. I say, “What makes your give a shit meter go to 100? What just sets you off?” We all have that, we all have a range and some of us get pushed into what we call the red zone, based on different things.

(17:08):

And when we’re in that zone, our brain is essentially in fight or flight mode, which you guys have heard of, right? So, it’s like we get into this reactive mode, we get into our default behaviors, whatever they are, and usually they’re learned. We didn’t all have great modeling, construction industry or otherwise, of how to deal with our emotions when we get into that state. And so, it’s about recognizing when you’re there, taking steps to pause before you pick your next step, and then choosing the best response.

Courtney Mattern (17:50):

I love the advice to pause. I don’t know about you Charley, but if I’m really upset, I won’t send the email yet, or I won’t schedule that meeting yet. I wait until I care a lot less to actually respond. That’s a popular example in the workplace, just don’t hit send.

Charley Burtwistle (18:09):

Right, yeah. I can tell.

Estie Briggs (18:10):

Oh my gosh.

Charley Burtwistle (18:11):

I can tell this is going to be a very introspective podcast hosting experience for me. I’m already writing down some notes on the side here.

Courtney Mattern (18:16):

Notes for ourselves.

Charley Burtwistle (18:17):

Yeah.

Courtney Mattern (18:19):

Well, you mentioned that the gasket, right, or the level, what sends you into give a shit over drive. Do you find that some people, that meter is more sensitive? Some people get sent way to the red section way easier than other people?

Estie Briggs (18:39):

Yeah, so that’s a great question. So, ask yourself … There’s a million opportunities a day to get triggered by things. Right? People cut us off in traffic, I get frustrated sometimes with whatever. There’s lots of different opportunities, but the thing that sets us off, I find, or that sends us into that high emotional state, it almost always comes down to some need not being met and/or something about us being called into question. Like somebody’s … For me, when I’ve been in that zone, it’s not pretty because I get there, too. Just because I know all this stuff doesn’t mean I get it right. Just let me be transparent.

Courtney Mattern (19:31):

It’s practice, practice, practice.

Estie Briggs (19:33):

Exactly, but for me when I do get into that state, it’s always been either somebody was questioning my ability as a mom or questioning my integrity or my values or something really close to my heart. So, to answer your question, it depends on the person, and it depends on what other things are going on for them that day, because you never know. That’s the other thing I always say is, we operate off of assumptions that we don’t even know we’re operating off of. And so that’s also one of the things that I jotted down is, you want to always check your assumptions. What are you assuming about the situation?

Courtney Mattern (20:17):

We’ve been talking a lot in our team about team norms with communication and one of the things that we’ve been saying a lot is assuming positive intent.

Estie Briggs (20:28):

Yay.

Courtney Mattern (20:29):

Because you can assume a lot from a piece of communication that might not be true. Assumptions aren’t facts, and you don’t want to …

Estie Briggs (20:36):

Exactly.

Courtney Mattern (20:36):

… respond emotionally to something that’s not a fact.

Estie Briggs (20:41):

Yeah, and think about how many times we’ve assumed something incorrectly and then reacted to that based on what we thought was happening. And then you end up down this rabbit hole that could have been completely prevented if you’d assumed the best. And it doesn’t mean that we should be naive and not think that people are going to bullshit us sometimes or not pull their weight or whatever. We still have to hold people accountable, but at least starting off with that assuming positive intent, I’m glad you guys are doing that. That’s good.

Courtney Mattern (21:14):

Until you get all of the information.

Charley Burtwistle (21:17):

Are there things that, I love what you guys were hitting on there about practice and being mindful. Post a situation occurring, how could I have handled this better? We do things a lot of Buildertrend, we call retros, where something happens, we circle back up. We’re like, what happened? How could we have handled it better? What are we going to do differently in the future? Obviously, that makes sense. Are there things that people can do kind of proactively as they’re going into these situations to prepare themselves and prevent themselves from either losing control or having their meter go up to 100, as you kind of alluded to?

Estie Briggs (21:50):

Yeah, that’s a good question. I think I just want to pick up something that you mentioned about doing your retros, where if something goes wrong, you go back and look at it and say, what happened? In order for that to be a productive conversation and an authentic conversation, you have to have psychological safety. People need to be able to say, this is what happened, this mistake happened, this, whatever. So, if you don’t have that in the first place, you’re not going to get anywhere because everybody’s too busy covering their butt, and that’s a cultural thing. Right?

(22:26):

So, what you just described is maybe not the norm for other places. Hopefully it is, hopefully we can sit down and look at things retroactively and not point fingers, but. So, it depends on the culture of the company and the situation in the team. Are people allowed to name mistakes? And if they’re not, then that’s a systems problem. That’s more of a fundamental problem that needs to be diagnosed.

(22:55):

But to answer your question, what can people do if they know they’re going into a situation? There’s actually a couple techniques that I share with people. So, one sounds really simple, but it’s just this four-step technique and it’s called Square Breathing. So, I don’t know if you guys have heard of that, but it’s four seconds inhale, four seconds exhale, four seconds hold it. Oh, wait. Sorry … Inhale for four seconds, hold it for four seconds, exhale for four seconds, and then hold that for four seconds.

Courtney Mattern (23:31):

I can hear Charley breathing for four seconds into the microphone.

Charley Burtwistle (23:36):

I’m actually a huge fan of that and do it all the time.

Estie Briggs (23:40):

There’s science behind it. I won’t go into all of it because I don’t feel like I can explain it well, but I know that it works.

(23:50):

And then there’s another process that I’ll have people do, especially if they’re new leaders and they feel a little imposter syndrome or feel like they’re going into a meeting, and they know that they want to say something and they want to be prepared to show up with authority. Make a list before the meeting of things that you’ve just rocked at, things that you know you overcame obstacles. We’ve all got things that we’ve overcome in our past. We can do hard things, if you’re here, you got through the pandemic and you’re living and breathing, and you manage to keep your job and whatever. Just the fact that we’re all here after a really stressful past few years, I think we should give ourselves credit for that, but that’s a separate rant. But make a list of your accomplishments, make a list of things that you’re really proud of yourself for, and just the act of carrying that around with you.

(24:58):

And somebody gave me that advice 25 years ago, and I would just keep this little sheet in my notebook at the back of meeting notes, and it’s just this visual reminder that you can do the hard things and that you do have something to bring to the table. And it kind of puts you in that mindset shift of not being reactive, but just being centered.

Charley Burtwistle (25:24):

Yeah, the classic, I think I actually quoted this today. Everything will be OK, we’ve done harder things before. It seems like it’s the biggest problem right now, but guess what? We’ve had the biggest problem right now 100 times already.

Estie Briggs (25:36):

Yep.

Charley Burtwistle (25:36):

And we’re still here.

Estie Briggs (25:37):

That’s the thing about emotions is that they’re temporary. It’s like we feel them, and it’s all that we’re feeling in the moment, but it is never permanent.

Charley Burtwistle (25:46):

Yeah, I love that. What about … So, we hit on prepping for these situations, what to do after these situations. I love what your point off my point, of the, you have to make sure that you have that openness, and that’s a norm at the company. I think that’s something that a lot of our listeners, and people that we’ve had on the podcast before have really stressed is like, your employees have to feel comfortable telling you when things are going wrong and know that there’s not going to be repercussions in order for you to ultimately fix them. What about heat of the moment? So, not before, not after, as things are starting to escalate. Maybe it’s not even you …

Estie Briggs (26:19):

You’re instigating.

Charley Burtwistle (26:19):

But you’re witnessing someone in the room. What are some good …

Estie Briggs (26:22):

You don’t get warned, yeah.

Charley Burtwistle (26:24):

Yeah, some de-escalation techniques.

Estie Briggs (26:26):

Yeah, oh my gosh, I was at the store the other day, and I felt so bad for the woman in front of me who, or I felt really bad for the checker. The woman in front of me was just losing it on her. She was so frustrated because she couldn’t get the coupon code on her phone to work, and there was this big line of people, and the cashier also appeared to, maybe she was hard of hearing or something, but this woman was just tearing into her. And so, it was palpable, like I could feel it. And at the time, I felt that like, “Oh, I’ve gotten really good at feeling when I’m emotionally triggered.” I felt a flash in my neck, and I felt warm and stomach cramps, and we all have these different physiological responses. So, anyway, I’ll share the … I didn’t do anything to change the situation, and I reflected on it later and kind of wished that I had. I wish I’d intervened and said, “Hey, take it easy on her. She’s doing her best,” or something. I didn’t.

(27:35):

But to answer your question about what to do in the moment. There’s actually this short four-step process, and I just call it PIER, it’s P-I-E-R, that I started teaching in my classes. And it’s when you recognize that you’re in it, the first step is to just pause. So, the P stands for pause. And then the I stands for investigate. And investigate is, “Okay, what am I feeling? I’m feeling, am I feeling resentment?” Am I feeling anger, is way too broad of a term. The more granular you can get about what you’re feeling the better, because it helps us to crystallize what’s happening instead of just, “Oh, I’m really angry right now.” It’s like, well, why? Is there an injustice happening or you do feel unsafe? So, investigate.

(28:37):

And then the E is evaluate, and that is like, “Okay, well what are my tools? So, what are my options?” And at this point just the act of pausing, you’ve already taken yourself out that reptile reactive mode. So, the E is evaluate. And then the R stands for respond, and that’s, choose a skilled response to the situation.

Courtney Mattern (29:04):

It reminds me a little bit …

Estie Briggs (29:06):

Acronym. Sorry, go ahead.

Courtney Mattern (29:08):

Sorry, it reminds me of, I think it’s a principle from Buddhism or mindfulness, but it’s called a Sacred Pause. That moment between something happening to you and between taking action, and that you can just be neutral in that space, learning to just be completely neutral, have no feelings one way or the other. And then I’ve found that you actually, you choose to act less often or respond. So, in your case …

Estie Briggs (29:37):

100%.

Courtney Mattern (29:37):

… at the grocery store, one might take that pause and realize, well, maybe if I say something that might actually make the …

Estie Briggs (29:48):

Escalate.

Courtney Mattern (29:48):

… person at the register, yeah, more angry. So, maybe I won’t, and I’ll just …

Estie Briggs (29:52):

Just stay on my phone.

Courtney Mattern (29:53):

… give her a big smile when I get up to the cash register.

Estie Briggs (29:56):

I did, yeah.

Courtney Mattern (29:57):

But it’s funny because a lot of these tactics, they feel, it’s like being at a yoga class or meditation or breath work. And like Charley said though, our industry is sort of in this renaissance where they’re getting more comfortable with using these tactics in the business place, in the workplace. What do you think Estie, in your experience working with construction professionals, is the business value? Now, we’re going to speak to that logical side of all our listeners.

Estie Briggs (30:30):

Yeah, sure.

Courtney Mattern (30:30):

What value does this bring to a business place? Why practice this introspective practice and working on your emotional cue? Good for your bottom line, good for your business?

Estie Briggs (30:42):

Yeah, that’s an excellent question. I mean, there’s tons of research and studies that do show … So, on the individual level, people that do work on these things and build these skills tend to make more money. It’s like, that’s just completely, I’ll just put that out there. It’s on average, people with higher EQ make around $29,000 a year more than people with lower EQ.

Courtney Mattern (31:06):

Cue the cha-ching sound.

Estie Briggs (31:08):

Yeah, so for whatever that’s worth, but I think more importantly that it shows up so the culture, a culture, we hear the term culture all the time. It’s like, oh, we have this workplace culture, team culture, and people have different definitions of what that means. Culture is how we do things around here. How do we interact every day? How do we handle it when somebody screws up? How do we hold people accountable? What do we reward? All those things impact how you’re showing up for your customers and your bottom line. So, and when I say bottom line, I don’t just mean profit bottom line, but ultimately, the product that you’re putting out.

(31:56):

So, quick example, just top of mind. Let’s say you got a crew of team members working on a project and somebody sees that something wasn’t done right and maybe this person is new, and they don’t feel safe calling it out, so they don’t say anything because the culture is one that is like, shut up and do your work. Right? So, just hypothetical, not anybody I’m picking on in particular. That’s going to come back, right? Whether it’s electrical or gas line or something that should have been corrected. When there’s a culture that shuts down that kind of communication, it results in things either not improving or there being a lack of innovation. I don’t think innovation can come when people don’t feel safe.

Courtney Mattern (32:53):

Yeah, nobody wants to share their idea just to be told, “That’s a dumb idea.”

Estie Briggs (32:58):

Right, yeah, but it used to be just like I mentioned, I was married a construction contractor for years, and he grew up in the trades where it was the old school, just do your job and don’t question it, and the old guys know what’s going on, and you do what they say. And it’s like, that worked for that era, but things have changed. There’s new requirements, there’s new changes, there’s things have gone digital.

Courtney Mattern (33:27):

Well, and there’s technology. Like Charley, did you say with our customers, they might have more of a hunger for EQ because when they use Buildertrend or some sort of technology, they’re kind of opening themselves up for greater transparency. They’re sharing everyday daily logs, they’re accountable for their progress, and everybody else can see it?

Charley Burtwistle (33:48):

Yeah.

Estie Briggs (33:48):

That’s huge, yeah, and change is hard for people, it’s difficult. I mentioned earlier that EQ and change are related, and when we encounter change, when we encounter a new way of having to do things, especially when it’s thrust upon us, and we don’t have any choice, it can feel really, it’s almost like grief. It’s like, “Oh, I used to be able to just do it this way every day and I didn’t have to think about it.” And it’s like, well that’s, nothing lasts forever. So, it’s being adaptable.

Charley Burtwistle (34:18):

Yeah, I feel like we should do … For sure, we should do an entire second episode with you around change management because I think that’s another …

Estie Briggs (34:24):

I love change management.

Charley Burtwistle (34:25):

… huge thing that we could talk about. But obviously, I don’t work in the industry, but I am fortunate enough to talk to a lot of people through “The Building Code” that do, and I feel like the topics that we’ve been hitting on a ton over the past six to 12 months has been retaining top talent and providing an exceptional client experience for who you’re working for. And hearing you talk through the benefits of focusing on this, solve both of those things to me is like a better … It’s kind of your mission statement of your firm, right? It’s like bringing joy to the workplace. If you want to retain top talent, they have to be happy working there. And if you want more customers and more leads and more jobs and the biggest marketing outreach in the construction industry today, it’s still word of mouth. And you’re not going to have those referrals if you don’t provide an exceptional client experience for that as well, too.

(35:10):

So, I think that the $29,000 or whatever number you quoted to me makes total sense, and I don’t question that at all because it’s really, really easy hearing the examples you gave to tie the dots back to customers that we’ve talked to on “The Building Code” before and the issues the industry is still facing today.

Courtney Mattern (35:26):

Yeah, and giving all of our listeners tips on how not to lose your shit when things get heated, too. Times that they get heated is maybe talking to your subs, talking to your partners that you rely on. You want to attract that talent, and then tough conversations with clients. So, if you can pause and evaluate the situation and react better, then you’re going to come out stronger and more competitive than others in your industry.

Charley Burtwistle (35:49):

Estie, as we’re kind of wrapping up here, I’d love to know, just like I’m sure I’m fired up about this, hopefully our listeners are, too.

Estie Briggs (35:57):

Yay.

Charley Burtwistle (35:57):

What are some daily kind of practices or habits that they can start doing or maybe books or resources?

Estie Briggs (36:04):

Oh, yeah.

Charley Burtwistle (36:04):

If someone is being mindful and think, this is an area I want to improve, what are some next steps that you give our listeners on how they could start down that path?

Estie Briggs (36:13):

Sure. So, it can be as simple as, one daily practice that I highly recommend is to just, whether you’re doing it throughout the day or once at the end of the day, try to list all the emotions that you felt during the day. And that might sound crazy, it might sound squishy, but here’s why it works. You’re going through the day, and you don’t always have the opportunity to sit down and go, “Oh, I felt unhappy just now,” or now I’m having trouble thinking of the emotion range. But if you can list your emotions that you felt throughout the day, you can start to see patterns so it can help. For example, maybe you realize that during a certain time of day you’re always in the blue zone. And we talk about these, here, I’ll just show you guys the … This is a tool from Marc Brackett, and it’s called the Mood Meter. And they use this in schools, but I love this.

Courtney Mattern (37:20):

They do, in elementary school. I’ve seen my kid has to place his emotions, yeah.

Estie Briggs (37:24):

Yes, are they in the red zone? Yeah.

Courtney Mattern (37:24):

Yeah, are you in the red zone or yellow?

Estie Briggs (37:27):

And it makes it so simple, but it’s simple, but it’s not easy. So, it’s like recognizing where you’re at in these quadrants is basically saying, am I experiencing pleasant or unpleasant emotions? And is my energy high or low? And so, if you have high energy and unpleasant, you’re up here, you’re in the red zone, you’re losing your shit. No, but if you can look back at the end of the day and be like, “Okay, well, how often was I in the red zone? When was I in the yellow zone? What put me there?” You can start to connect the dots. Like you said earlier, it’s like, okay, well what does that mean if I’m in the blue zone?

(38:09):

As soon as I get into the office, for example, when I used to work in the mortgage industry, I always felt great in the morning. My first couple hours were yellow zone, I was high energy, pleasant, coworkers were there, I was doing my job, I was feeling productive. But as soon as that one boss came in that always talked down to people and made people cry, I immediately went to, I felt tired, I felt I ate more carbs. You don’t know until you go back and reflect, so.

Courtney Mattern (38:45):

Well, it connects some dots for me of why my Apple Watch is always asking me how I’m feeling. I think in the last update, they added an emotions tracker, so it’ll be like …

Estie Briggs (38:53):

Oh my gosh.

Courtney Mattern (38:54):

… take a minute to reflect on how you’re feeling, and I’m like, I don’t have time.

Estie Briggs (38:57):

Now, I’m feeling stressed because you’re making me do this.

Courtney Mattern (39:00):

I might not be in the yellow quadrant, I better check with my Apple Watch.

Estie Briggs (39:05):

So, I would say, but to that point, just tracking your emotions.

(39:10):

And then I just also want to go back and clarify, regulating isn’t about not feeling, so you’ve got to get it out. There’s also a really good resource book called “Burnout,” and it is, I can send you the link, but they talk about how going through emotions is going through a tunnel, and you can’t just get stuck in the tunnel, and you can’t just push it aside. You got to deal with it eventually, and so, that’s where the self-care, even though, again, it sounds squishy.

(39:42):

But it’s like, I just did a coaching session this morning with a guy, and he is a black belt in Jujitsu, and he had a knee injury and he hasn’t been able to practice. And he’s finding himself really in the red zone all the time. And there’s things that we can do later, not in the moment, to keep working through those emotions. So when we do have the unpleasant emotions, we still need to go out and punch a punching bag or go for a run or go for a swim, or preferably a healthy coping mechanism. That’s a whole other workshop session we could do is coping mechanisms. But keep in mind that it’s not about not feeling, it’s just about not letting them, it’s about not being reactive and letting our emotions inform our decisions without having some say in it.

Charley Burtwistle (40:38):

I love that. Well, Estie, thank you very, very much for your time today. As we’re wrapping up here, any final words of advice or a message you want to leave our listeners with?

Estie Briggs (40:48):

My pleasure. Yeah, there’s no bad emotions. So, even the unpleasant ones are trying to tell you something. And question your assumptions. Always ask yourself, “What am I assuming about the situation? What’s the story I’m telling myself?” And don’t beat yourself up if you don’t get this right, would be the third thing because we’re all doing our best. And we’re in unprecedented times, as far as the levels of stress and anxiety that people are feeling and trying to keep up with the demands of how life has changed and everything’s digital and AI and elections, and it’s like you could just list the things that can put us into the red zone. So, be kind to yourself and don’t beat yourself up when you do get it wrong, just keep on keeping on, keep trying to get better at it.

Charley Burtwistle (41:50):

I love that. Well, thank you so, so much. This was a great interview. I got a list of notes written down, so I’m sure our listeners enjoyed it as well. Really, really appreciate the time today.

Estie Briggs (41:56):

I hope so, thank you. And I was going to say, you can check out my website for classes, but we can add that later, too, if you want.

Charley Burtwistle (42:07):

Oh yeah, we will definitely. We got the link right here, so we will add that in the show notes.

Estie Briggs (42:10):

Awesome.

Courtney Mattern (42:10):

Yeah, we’ll be linking to all the books and all the resources, everything mentioned for sure.

Estie Briggs (42:15):

Great, cool.

Charley Burtwistle (42:17):

Sweet. Well, thank you very much, Estie. Have a great day.

Estie Briggs (42:19):

Thanks, you guys. It was my pleasure.

Charley Burtwistle (42:22):

Well, we just heard from Estie Briggs. I wrote down a ton of notes. I learned a lot. Hopefully our listeners did as well, too. Courtney, did you?

Courtney Mattern (42:31):

Oh yeah, I was totally geeking out. I had recently taken a course in positive psychology and operational behavior, which sounds like a lot of mumbo jumbo, but she touched on a lot of the same lessons of pausing before you react, breathing, breath work. And those are all things that I think when you’re in the workplace, it can feel cheesy to be like, hold on, let me take a breath, let me take a breather. But there’s a real impact to your relationships at work and the problems that you’re trying to solve, if you can do that, if you can be mindful about your approach. There’s so many times in all types of work on construction sites, at the office, where someone just hits you right in the right button, and it sends that meter into, what did we call it? The danger zone, and your give a shit meter just flies off the handle. And it’d be good to be able to take a breath.

Charley Burtwistle (43:33):

Yeah. Well, what I love, too, is I think in her closing remarks there is she said your emotions are valid and normal. And I think a lot of times people think that it’s bad to have these flareups or that they run really, really hot-blooded. But no, the reason our customers are as successful as they are is they do give a shit, and they are passionate about what they work on. And if they didn’t have those emotions, then they wouldn’t be successful businessmen or women, they wouldn’t be successful contractors or any other industry outside of construction as well, too. So, that was a good thing. A good reminder for me is like, this is normal, this is valid. Take a breath, you’ve been here before. I love the idea she brought up as well, too, is have a list of all your accomplishments. Think through how many times you’ve dealt with something just like this before and the sky didn’t fall and the sun rose the next day. So, take the breath, move on, and you’ll be better for it.

Courtney Mattern (44:28):

Yeah, I think even the advice to reflect that emotion, maybe you save that for later, like after you’re through the situation, but realizing where that’s coming from. I think I had a time last year where just kind of out of nowhere, someone gave me a piece of feedback, and my meter went straight to red, and I reacted in a way that was kind of uncharacteristic, but then later on reflection was able to track it down to something that was completely unrelated to that person, my relationship with them. So, I also like how Estie brings up, challenge your assumptions. Don’t assume that when someone gives you piece of feedback or asks a question that puts your meter in the red, that it comes from a bad place. It might be you, it might be some feeling that you haven’t dealt with yet. So, I think all of these were good pieces of advice that you could start applying immediately tomorrow morning. I mean, that I will.

Charley Burtwistle (45:20):

Yeah, I will, too. Well, technically it’s 4:25 right now, so we got 35 minutes left in our day.

Courtney Mattern (45:24):

Yeah, we can still apply it to this day.

Charley Burtwistle (45:26):

We can still apply it today.

Courtney Mattern (45:28):

I was already 10 out of 10, but now I might be 20 out of 10, feeling good about this today.

Charley Burtwistle (45:32):

Love it. Well, Courtney, it was an absolute pleasure hosting with you today. And Estie, if you’re listening to this, thank you again so much for joining us. I think that’ll do it for this episode of “The Building Code.” We will see you next time. I’m Charley Burtwistle.

Courtney Mattern (45:43):

And I’m Courtney Mattern.

Charley Burtwistle (45:45):

See you. Nice.