Contractors and subs: Working better together with Jesse Kath

Zach Wojtowicz:

It’s ““The Building Code””. We’re back, Charley.

Charley Burtwistle:

We are back once again. I liked that little intro there Zach, we got a little pep in our step there or what?

Zach Wojtowicz:

Well we’re just trying to jazz it up a little bit. Show a little excitement.

Charley Burtwistle:

Big episode today, we got Jesse Kath here today from Jkath Design Build + Reinvent. What are we going to be talking about, Zach?

Zach Wojtowicz:

Well, I think we’re going to get into the subcontractor world a little bit. Jesse was actually himself a subcontractor, he started out building cabinets. We’re going to get into that a little bit. And then just talk about the experience of using subcontractors with Buildertrend. This is an area where we have a lot of conversations with our builders and we don’t always reach that secondary audience with the sub side of things, because a lot of our builders will tell us, “My subs won’t use it.” And so we’ll find out if that’s true or not.

Charley Burtwistle:

Yeah, it will be interesting. I think it’s an area of Buildertrend as a whole, that often goes overlooked, as really, a feature of Buildertrend is being able to collaborate with your subcontractors. I won’t quote any specific number, but we have hundreds of thousands of subcontractors using our system with our builders every day. And I don’t think people often time realize that most of them are already using Buildertrend with other builders that they’re working with. So the excuse of, “My subs won’t use it”? Not always super applicable, at times.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Yeah. I’m sure you’re probably pretty close to that data as far as the sub side of things and just how much the sub market really is using Buildertrend. So let’s get Jesse in here and let’s have a conversation about his experience with Buildertrend subcontractors.

Charley Burtwistle:

Let’s do it.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Welcome Jesse Kath to “The Building Code.” We’re so excited to have you here today. Let’s just start with a little bit about yourself. Why don’t you tell us about design at Jkath and everything about your business?

Jesse Kath:

Yeah, sure. The name of the company is Jkath Design Build + Reinvent, and I am Jesse Kath. I’m the founder and I founded the company in 2010. I actually started my career after college in Corporate America. And did that for, I think, seven years. Traveled around the country working for a couple of different vocations for that corporation and then ended up in cabinets, believe it or not. I think I was that guy in college that always helps build the dorm lofts, and I just had a knack for it. And started in cabinets, running high-end cabinetry in a bigger shop. And then at some point I decided, “Hey, let’s do this for ourselves.” And that’s when I started that company. Since then, in 2010, we’ve had our own cabinet shop. So we supply cabinets to our clients, and we’re a boutique design build firm and we specialize in high-end remodeling. And then we sometimes we’ll do a new build.

Zach Wojtowicz:

That’s really interesting. You don’t really hear people starting in cabinetry and moving into new home building. So I kind of want-

Jesse Kath:

Or in Corporate America and then the building, because I could have skipped the whole college thing really.

Zach Wojtowicz:

It’s funny though, Jesse. We’ve had a lot of guests, talked to a lot of people. It actually is pretty common. We’ve talked to people who were in advertising, who were attorneys, and a lot of them end up turning to home building. So I’ve heard that one before, but never have I heard someone like, “I’m going to go make cabinets,” which, I’ve actually had some experience with cabinet companies. It’s such a particular type of fabrication. There’s a lot of nuance to it. So that’s really interesting, this episode, we’re focusing on subcontracting a little bit. So you have the experience of someone who was a subcontractor and a home builder, what was that transition? What led you to go into new homes as a cabinet maker?

Jesse Kath:

Well, it’s funny that you say that because my wife was also a partner in this business and does the social media marketing, I don’t know. We like to call her the CEO. She’s really-

Zach Wojtowicz:

Making the decisions.

Jesse Kath:

The brains. Yeah. Even if she wasn’t I’d still call her that. She’s the brains behind this business and is really, I mean, we’ve doubled our business every year. Obviously part of it is the demand, but she keeps moving us forward with process and Buildertrend, I think, was mostly her idea. And she told me to tell you guys that I do think in terms of an eighth of an inch, and that comes from my cabinet business side of me and it’s, what’s a blessing’s a curse as well, because I can walk into a house and see something that’s out of whack by an eighth of an inch.

Jesse Kath:

So not always good for the mental stability, but good for the craftsmanship and the final details. Now, unfortunately in today’s business, I don’t get to do much of that anymore. Running the business like a business person should. And sometimes my wife has to put the ropes on me because I want to get out in the field and start throwing things around. So I try to reel it back and keep moving forward with sales and project management, such as the Buildertrend.

Charley Burtwistle:

Yeah. So you mentioned earlier that you guys are continuing to grow every year, founded in 2010. What do you think is fueling or what are some of the conscious decisions that you guys are making in order to continue to grow and scale at the rate that you guys have been?

Jesse Kath:

Yeah. You used the word scale and so does our CEO in talking about process. For so many years, it was in my head. And I think what she came to the realization is that my brains can turn to mush because sometimes I think they are, or we can decide to move on from this business, but we want to have process in place. And as we grow, we have seven full-time employees now, which still isn’t a big company, but it is for a small boutique remodeling firm that relies also on subcontractors. We just needed more process and we’re doing that from top to bottom, and Buildertrend was a good start for that. I wouldn’t say that I am against technology or new tools. I think I just am so set in my ways of the way I learned it, and of course, sometimes entrepreneurs can be bullheads like that.

Charley Burtwistle:

Yeah. I think software and technology is always hard to implement. How long ago did you guys start using Buildertrend and what were some of the growing pains that you had to get used to, and also what were some of the biggest game changers of what you did onboard and had implemented? How did that improve your processes as you were talking about?

Jesse Kath:

I think it was right around the beginning of COVID if I remember right. I feel like these last two years have blended together, it was something that we always wanted to look into. I think, again, here’s the honesty thing. I went on the website, clicked on something and then holy cow, sales would not leave me alone. I think I kept telling him, “Hey, not ready yet, not ready yet.” And the fact of the matter was, is I was ready and they probably knew that. And I just…

Zach Wojtowicz:

Just wanted to play hardball a bit, Jesse, didn’t you?

Jesse Kath:

Yeah, I just couldn’t take on one more hard sell, but, yeah. So what happened was, I think, right when that hit, we were contracted to do a big cabinet job for a private entity or actually another builder. Which we hardly ever do. We only usually do cabinetry for our own projects because we can’t keep up. And they had Buildertrend, and they had the full pack. And so I was able to play around in it as a subcontractor. So that was a great experience for me just to get a feel for it and to only know a section of how good it could be. So we then reached out and signed up for whatever package we’re on and went through the training, and it’s pretty straightforward.

Jesse Kath:

Most of us could learn it fairly quickly. I think there’s just so much more to it that we still keep diving into and learning. The thing about the subcontractors that’s been, as I’ve gained more confidence, I’ve included more and more of them. And the thing I find is that a lot of those subcontractors are already on it with other builders. The bigger outfits are definitely already on it, and some of them trust it and some of them don’t, and some of them are in the middle. I had a granite company email me the other day and say that she has this countertop measure on for this date and this countertop on for this date, and I’m thinking, “How does she know that?” Well here, it’s coming to her from Buildertrend. But it’s an understanding, it’s a forecasting tool that she’s able to use. So it’s been good in that regard.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Yeah, Jesse I’ve had a few experiences working with clients where the subcontractor is actually more on top of Buildertrend than the GC is, and it’s a really interesting conversation that I’ve had with my clients where we’re going back and forth talking about why obviously there’s value in things like scheduling and documenting things and having everything in one place. Do you run into that ever, where subs are trying to hold you accountable to using the software?

Jesse Kath:

Well, absolutely. I’m shaking my head. Yes. Right now. It’s funny, I was talking to… I have two younger than me. Well, most of everybody in our group is. It’s funny because at Christmas we go around, we go oldest to youngest. And my mother-in-law’s the only one that’s older than me in the room.

Zach Wojtowicz:

How does that, you know? Just time flies.

Jesse Kath:

That happened today though, I was talking to one of my project managers on a project and he said that the HVAC guy said he went dark on the schedule, so he moved us out. Well, I took the schedule offline because we had to make some adjustments. And I think he’s using that to play my young project manager a little bit. But that’s where he’s taking it literally, like, “Oh, well I’m on the schedule for September 3rd, but now it’s not on there anymore. So I’m going to move it to something else.” So that’s one thing that I just discovered today. You know, other than that, yeah. I mean, there have been other bigger outfits that have been doing it for a while. That will have input.

Zach Wojtowicz:

When you were getting started with Buildertrend. Was that one of your main intentions? I’m just curious. Were you looking for more sub coordination when you signed up or has this just been a bonus for you?

Jesse Kath:

No, because when we signed up, we still hadn’t rolled out a lot of our new process, and I was trying to take on way more than I could handle. And it became, “How are we going to grow this business?”, “How am I going to maintain my quality of life with a wife and three kids?” And, “I got to go coach football in 20 minutes.” There’s things like that that you need to use software or planning tools like this to help you. And in the beginning that was the one area that I decided to roll out last or once we got our feet on the ground, because I did not want to go out too soon and ruin the credibility of it. In my holdback, I was actually surprised how many people out there were already using it and that shouldn’t have been a fear of mine. The thing about this business in general is there are a lot of mom and pops, and those guys may never gravitate towards something like this, but you just don’t check their name or you don’t invite them to be a part of it.

Charley Burtwistle:

You’ve mentioned a couple of different things though. Sometimes you have subcontractors that are already using different people. Sometimes you have people that are kind of in the middle but are open to it. What is your process if, or do you even have any subcontractors that have come across, that have never used or even heard of Buildertrend before? What’s your kind of process to get them up and going in order to ensure that they’re being as strategic and optimized in their usage as possible?

Jesse Kath:

Yeah. That’s a great question. And that’s also where I was surprised that more of them are using it than I gave them credit for, but there are still going to be the handful that I haven’t really worked out a process, or I haven’t prioritized it as, “Hey guys, get on board.” Those are still the guys that take the phone calls, they don’t… I mean, there’s one of them that, on his email, who his wife sends, says, “We don’t text.”

Zach Wojtowicz:

[crosstalk 00:11:57] That’s just a stance, “We don’t text.”

Jesse Kath:

Yeah, no texts. And he’s the one that digs the holes. So you’re going to have guys like that, that just aren’t going to be onboard. And I’m OK with that. I know those guys. I can read those guys and I’m not going to waste my time. And what we’ve found is that as we get better at this business and become more sought after, I’m losing some of those guys. I’m stepping it up to the people that want to continue to move forward and use technology because it’s just too exhausting to be making those phone calls all day long.

Zach Wojtowicz:

That’s a really great point that you’re making here, that I think I’ve had some conversations with clients about the subs holding so much weight. So your guy who digs the holes, are you finding that you’re starting to look for other options because of their lack of technology access or just unwillingness? There’s something to be said, right? About sub competition. They have relationships with these guys, but not beholding yourself to one guy who does everything, because then if you are running into those operational issues, he is holding up the show consistently. I don’t know if I’m hitting any targets on that suggestion, but is that something you had to start doing with people who are like, “I’m not going to use Buildertrend?”

Jesse Kath:

If you had video of me right now, you’d see me trying to interrupt you about every 10 seconds, because all of that is true. And I think, again, as you become more in demand, trying to shed some of that dead weight is the best way to keep moving forward. Now, in this environment, when everybody’s so busy, sometimes you can’t choose. Beggars can’t be choosers, I guess, would be the cliche. But at the same time, they’re making our jobs harder.

Jesse Kath:

If I have to track somebody down to get their subcontractor agreement or their lien waiver or their insurance, or just, “Where are you?” It gets to be exhausting. And I thankfully just recently in the last half a year, I don’t do that much of that anymore. Obviously some of it’s taken care of by Buildertrend, but now I have a few other layers in between myself and the subs. I will say that I really enjoy being in the field and being out onsite and so I still get to do it, today was that day. And usually it unfolds where my day becomes late, every way I turn because of it but those guys will always continue to be a different tier of people.

Charley Burtwistle:

Well, I think you have the right mindset and after talking to you for 15 minutes or however long it’s been now, I can understand why you guys are able to grow year over year. You guys have a very growth mindset and I think you have the right idea. I don’t think that that’s consistent across the industry or really any profession as a whole, as some people are okay with the status quo and just keeping things the way they are. And then some people like you are like, “If we want to grow and break goals and exceed expectations, sooner or later, we have to make changes. We have to get the team on board, we have to find subcontractors that are willing to work with our processes and things like that.” So to me, I guess, congrats to you for sticking to it and having that mindset to look forward and implement some of these changes that weren’t easy to do from the start.

Jesse Kath:

Yeah. I appreciate that. I mean, it’s still not easy for me and I really had to work at it. It’s like that trust thing, and I had so much in my head. Like I said, I used to be able to go measure a kitchen and not even have to write it down and now I can’t even remember how I got there. I think that’s just a indicator of how much is in your brain and how much you have going on with trying to run a business. Now, I think that we could start using Buildertrend even deeper and as we go forward, we are getting deeper and we’re getting better at it. And we’re finding ways that, maybe sometimes you set things up that may not be the way it was intended to be used, the way you’re maybe adding folders or whatever and there’s probably a better way. And I would also say that the one thing that we have not relied on, and I probably should do a better job of that, is reaching out and asking questions to Buildertrend or a trainer or getting online and looking at the help.

Zach Wojtowicz:

That’s a great point with Buildertrend. There’s a lot of creative ways that you can use it. Then there’s the intent, obviously from the product side of their intention behind it. But this relationship is so strong is because we listen to you, you listen to us. We give a lot of contractors advice on “Here’s how other clients do it.” We have this community that we’re building. I’m really interested to hear you say though, that you were surprised that more of your subs were on it than you expected. And I think that’s really telling of, even though the sub market might be a little bit behind, as far as their adoption, they will be adopting it one way or another. Right?

Jesse Kath:

Right. Right. There always is going to be a younger guy in that company. That’s going to do something different.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Yeah. And then that leap forward just becomes natural. It’s just, sometimes you wish it would go a little quicker. The other thing I run into and maybe you were like this is, when you were onboarding yourself and you were talking about the sub interaction. Did you talk to anybody at Buildertrend who was like, “No, you should onboard your subs” and your initial reaction’s like, “Oh, my guys won’t use that.”

Jesse Kath:

Well, the person that trained me and you might have to edit this part, I’m not sure that he’s still there or not, but he was a builder. So he was experienced and he said, “For the sake of keeping your head on straight, take care of your own house first and get-“

Zach Wojtowicz:

Great advice.

Jesse Kath:

Yeah right. “…and get your own people working on it.” And that was where I said that, earlier, or maybe I didn’t because of the order of your recording it. The philosophy I have is make sure that we get our own house together first, before we start inviting subs into it because you could easily lose your credibility within the first couple of jobs, if you’re not using it right. It’s difficult, when I was taking on all the scheduling myself, I love the scheduling and I’m still trying to find a way to… Like, my best tool and my best way of doing it.

Jesse Kath:

I really liked the Gantt chart, kind of brings you back to college and project management. And I still have some input for how to make things better too, but that’s also just my opinion. So I’m using a blended Gantt chart list. The monthly, trying to tie it all back to the cabinet shop. The problem with the cabinet shop is it’s just not keeping up. So everything kind of gets out of whack. The thing I try to do is I try to pull them offline when they become inaccurate, because they can become inaccurate quickly.

Jesse Kath:

The problem in our business is when you put something down and you give it to some type A person, they’re going to hold you for what it says on their app. And that’s, as you know, it’s not always the case. One thing slips, the whole thing slips. And so we try to emphasize that it’s a guide and things are going to move all over the place. Sometimes you’re going to sneak in HVAC or maybe a plumber in before HVAC, and that’s just not the model, but sometimes it happens. And so that’s the one… I wouldn’t say downside, I would say it’s just the one caveat to using it is just to warn people that it’s only as good as we are.

Zach Wojtowicz:

I think that’s really, really good advice to make sure you have a strong enough grasp on what you’re doing and the potential implications. But there is a point where you just have to take a leap of faith and turn that schedule online, let people see it, in a lot of different places in Buildertrend. You mentioned you want to get it better at other parts of it. I’m just curious. What are you, maybe not using that you’re hoping to use in the future when it comes to Buildertrend?

Jesse Kath:

Hmm. I think it’s some of the things I’m doing may not be the best way to do it. So in other words, if I’m starting a new job or I’m trying to copy over a schedule and then recreating line, I just feel like my categories of my descriptions are all over the place. And also I’ve been trying to use the color more, and I’m trying to stay consistent with the color and that also sometimes gets neglected. And then I try to take some of the categories sometimes and break them down even further. So if I have cabinet installation, but I know that we’re not going to get the whole thing installed, but we’re only going to install those areas that need countertops so that it would coordinate with the countertop people. I’ll break it out even further and so that can sometimes be confusing for people, but it helps me.

Jesse Kath:

And then those specifics that I have hard dates on, I write them right in the line item, and then I don’t attach them to any predecessors, so that they don’t move. Right now in the Minneapolis area, one of the hardest things to schedule, and it never used to be, is countertop measure. And then countertop measure to fabrication to install, the lead times. It just extended so much that it makes everything more challenging. You have to tell somebody today when you’re ready for a measure so that you can predict when you’re going to wrap a kitchen up.

Charley Burtwistle:

Well, just listening to you talk and I mean, Zach’s a lot more closer to the product than I am, but it seems like you have a pretty good grasp on your usage and are pretty advanced. But it is cool that you’re constantly pushing for more. What would you say that kind of the biggest efficiency or the biggest change that you’ve implemented in your journey up to this point with Buildertrend has been?

Jesse Kath:

I think the biggest change and the biggest use for me right now is the scheduling. But the one thing that I also have to keep in mind is that, as I tell people, so my project manager will call me and say, “Hey, what’s the thickness of the tile?” And I’m like, “Dude, just go into Buildertrend and it’s under the spec sheet and check it out.” Or, “Hey, can I call Katie in the office and ask…” No. Guys, my favorite word right now is Buildertrend. “Go look in Buildertrend.” I mean, if it’s not there, then it’s on us in the office staff. And it can be frustrating when you’re always getting calls, and I enabled that. I made all these guys codependent on me because I used to have what I thought was all the answers.

Jesse Kath:

And I used to have most of them in my head. And so that was in… Man. I mean, we could fire off a million text messages in a day, and I’m exhausted from it. So now I’m trying to cut a lot of that out and just tell them, “Just go to Buildertrend.” So that’s what I feel like right now is the biggest push. And then if the schedule isn’t accurate, I do pull it offline because now they’re getting to the point where on Sunday night, they do look at it and they say, OK, this is happening tomorrow. But if it’s offline, then that kind of means it’s not happening.

Zach Wojtowicz:

You are a relatively newer customer to Buildertrend, but in a relative short amount of time, it sounds like that moment of transition is finally starting to sink in with your team, which is when it really gets exciting. Right?

Jesse Kath:

Right.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Can you recall a specific instance where you had a light bulb moment with your staff to say, “Wow, this is going to be the thing that we needed?”

Jesse Kath:

Sometimes I have ideas. I just don’t always share them or get them down on paper, just to spread the wealth. And so I think right now it’s really been a group think, trying to figure out the best way to do things in behind the scenes. We’re really working on trying to get the bidding and the pricing and all the things that are in my head, out of my head as well. Because in this business, you can’t wait for your eight subs to go through and give you a bid and then put it in the spreadsheet. You’ve got to be way ahead of the game on that. And I just have a feel for it. I mean, some things are done by the square foot. Yeah. But other things is just, “Hey, what’s that going to cost to frame that?” And you just got to know, or you’re going to die. And so I would like to try to keep moving that part of it forward too where I can keep giving all of these pieces to my team where I don’t have to be involved.

Charley Burtwistle:

Yeah. I think that makes a ton of sense. Jesse, we’re getting pretty close to time here. Thank you so much for coming on the episode of “The Building Code.” This has been really insightful for me. We talk to builders or remodelers every episode, but rarely do we get a chance to go into the weeds with how they, collaborate with their subcontractors and what that relationship is like. So this has been a really, really interesting conversation for me. So I appreciate your insights and your time here today.

Jesse Kath:

Excellent. Yeah, I’m shaking my head yes as well.

Charley Burtwistle:

Sweet. Thanks, Jesse.

Jesse Kath:

Thanks guys.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Charlie, what a great episode. Really good conversation.

Charley Burtwistle:

Yeah, that was awesome. Like I said, that was a really good episode.

Zach Wojtowicz:

And he was really open and honest with us about his Buildertrend experience. Our sales team’s aggressiveness, which I find very hilarious. I think some of our customers will also resonate with that to an extent. We just know how much we can change your business and your lives.

Charley Burtwistle:

Well, you got to trust us. I think you said in there sometimes you got to take the leap of faith. Right?

Zach Wojtowicz:

Yeah.

Charley Burtwistle:

Change is always hard. Change is always scary, but in Jesse’s case and a lot of other cases that we hear here on the pod, it really works out for them and literally changes their business and path that they’re on.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Yeah. I think Jesse is a lot like a lot of builders and I think what really stuck with me was just how open-minded he was to the experience and the process. And that it’s a collaborative effort that he acknowledged that subs had a ways to go, but there were plenty of subs already on board and that they could clearly outline which subs fall into different buckets of effectiveness. But got some really great tidbits on preparing yourself, making sure you understand Buildertrend to a certain extent, setting expectations with your subs. Really, really solid rollout plan. And that’s something I’ve always talked with my clients about from just an onboarding. Some people really natural, some people aren’t. Start with the naturals and get them going after you feel comfortable and then work those people that maybe need a little bit more support down the line.

Charley Burtwistle:

Yeah. And I thought it was, I mean, I was kind of shocked when I heard that he just rolled this out, early 2020. Because it seems like he’s already pretty deep in the program. I thought it was a really cool perspective. Someone that had been a subcontractor before, now is also a builder working with subcontractors. And I think the coolest thing, or the biggest takeaway for me is that you’re, if you do this right, and you’re able to onboard your subcontractors, you’re not only going to become more efficient, but you’re also going to make them more efficient. Right? He was talking about how he doesn’t have to have people call him anymore or text him or email.

Charley Burtwistle:

I think he had the quote, “My favorite word is Buildertrend.” Right? Which is a pretty good tagline. For them, subcontractors now have a one-stop shop for all the information they need right there on their phone at any given time. So not only does it make, our customers, the home builders, the remodelers, more efficient, but it also helps make their entire process and the people they work with more efficient, more profitable, save time and money. So it was a cool episode in a perspective that I don’t think we get a whole lot on “The Building Code.” So hopefully we go down that path a little bit more in the future because I definitely learned a lot.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks for joining us here on “The Building Code.” Remember to download “The Building Code” where all subscription services provide podcasts. I’m Zach Wojtowicz.

Charley Burtwistle:

I’m Charlie Burtwistle.